Since the Bible doesnt directly mention the Trinity, will Jehova Witneses or

[steaver]

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel

Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.

I reviewed all of these scriptures that you presented, but I don't see the OT saints experiences with the Holy Spirit measuring up to a "rebirth". The "rebirth" explained in the NT is the regeneration of a old creature into a new creature becoming one with God via the Holy Spirit's permanent indwelment. The old is past away and all things become new.

What is shown in the OT scriptures is the work of the Holy Spirit throughout history. The Holy Spirit would come upon men or enter into them to use them for God's will to be done or God's word to be spoken. There is no talk of a "rebirth" or a new creature being formed in any of the presented situations expressed. The work of the Holy Spirit in the OT does not equate with the NT's revelation of "born-again".

As for Nicodemus, I explained to you before that it wasn't that he should have known the OT saints were "born-again" but rather he could have known it was coming in Christ and maybe should have known if he claimed to be a teacher of the blind/or the scriptures. It was a jab at Nicodemus' position as a Pharisee.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I reviewed all of these scriptures that you presented, but I don't see the OT saints experiences with the Holy Spirit measuring up to a "rebirth".

Well then you are in good company - Nicodemus argued your same point in John 3 and Christ stated that it is impossible to be an OT Bible teacher and not see this doctrine clearly.

So while you may be joining Nicodemus on that point - I am going to have to go with Christ.

(see? - we don't always agree on every point.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver
The "rebirth" explained in the NT is the regeneration of a old creature into a new creature becoming one with God

Sounds like the Gospel to me.

Sounds like the Heb 11 list to me -- those giants of faith fully accepted by and "pleasing to" God.

Sounds like the CURE for the Romans 3 "sin problem" of the sinful nature.

No other solution sir.

via the Holy Spirit's permanent indwelment.

If by that you mean the false teaching of OSAS, it is not in NT or OT.

. The Holy Spirit would come upon men or enter into them to use them for God's will to be done or God's word to be spoken. There is no talk of a "rebirth" or a new creature

As the list explicitly showed us --

A NEW HEART (Jer 33)

A NEW Heart even for King Saul.

David shows this in Psalms as the true sacrifice to God - a gentle spirit and a contrite heart. -- "Take not the Holy Spirit from me - cast me not away from Thy Presence" --

It is all there

There is NTHER solution for the Rom 3 sinful nature.

No OTHER gospel of rescue from that condition.

Christ was right in his pre-cross reprimand to Nicodemus for not seeing this clearly in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus taught the statndard was loving God and being a good neighbor. Nothing to do with "believing (in)."

Sorry, the standard for what? When a lawyer asked Him which was the greatest commandment, he gave a reply that mentions loving God and your neighbour. Matthew 22.34-40:

34 ¶ But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 "This is the first and great commandment.
39 "And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."​

But can anyone be saved like that? Who would dare to say that he or she had spent every single moment of their lives loving God with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind? Who would dare to say that he or she had spent every single moment of their lives loving their neighbour (that is, fellow human-being) as they do themselves? If we could do that, Jesus could have stayed in heaven, and avoided the agonies (spiritual and physical) of His crucifixion.

I wonder where the idea comes from that Jesus' standard had "nothing to do with believing"? Here are just a few bible verses that would indicate otherwise:

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Joh 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 6:47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

Joh 12:46 "I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.​

Apologies for the duplication. When I started typing this, Steaver's similar post had not appeared.

 

[steaver]

But can anyone be saved like that? Who would dare to say that he or she had spent every single moment of their lives loving God with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind? Who would dare to say that he or she had spent every single moment of their lives loving their neighbour (that is, fellow human-being) as they do themselves? If we could do that, Jesus could have stayed in heaven, and avoided the agonies (spiritual and physical) of His crucifixion.

Amen! :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

I just had a thought. I always like using the thumbs up guys, but in some countries thumb up gesture is like the middle finger in the USA. Since this is a www I wonder what those in other countries are thinking!

God Bless! :tongue3:

 

[Rooselk]

What is 1 John 5:7 if it isn't a direct mention of the Trinity/Godhead?

Most Bible scholars believe that verse was not in the original transcripts and was added some centuries following the writing of 1 John. However, that verse is certainly not needed as a proof text to prove that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. For instance, in Acts 5:3-4 the word God and Spirit are both used:

v3 - how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit ... And then in v4 - You have not lied to men but to God.

 

[Alcott]

I just had a thought. I always like using the thumbs up guys, but in some countries thumb up gesture is like the middle finger in the USA. Since this is a www I wonder what those in other countries are thinking!

Maybe they think we do a lot of hitchhiking.

 

[BobRyan]

Most Bible scholars believe that verse was not in the original transcripts and was added some centuries following the writing of 1 John. However, that verse is certainly not needed as a proof text to prove that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. For instance, in Acts 5:3-4 the word God and Spirit are both used:

v3 - how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit ... And then in v4 - You have not lied to men but to God.

Also in Matt 28 "in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" is not an "insert" it is actually in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darron Steele]

Since the Bible doesnt directly mention the Trinity, will Jehova Witneses or other religions who dont accept it be sent to hell???????

Disbelief in the Trinity is not what will condemn the Jehovah's Witnesses. As you noted, Scripture is not explicit about the Trinity, and Trinitarian theology is not the only theological system humans have come up with that attributes fully Deity to Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that Trinitarian theology is the model humans have come up with that best fits Scripture, I do not believe failure to believe it is a sin -- or Scripture would have spelled it out.

Rejection of the Deity of Christ is what will condemn them.

This event was recorded in John 10, starting with Jesus Christ speaking:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (ASV)

Jesus did communicate His deity.

Also, at Exodus 3:14 we have "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (ASV).

At John 8:24b Jesus identifed Himself the same way and stated that this was a requirement for salvation: " for except ye believe that| yo soy, en vuestros pecados moriréis" (ASV|RVR 1909) = "for except you believe that I I-am, in your sins you-will-die."

Jesus specified that unless we believe that Jesus is "I AM" = God, we will die in our sins. As Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe this, the result will be the same unless they change their minds.

 

[BobRyan]

How many people in the OT or pre-cross really understood that the Messiah would also be YHWH??

The disciples appeared to know that Jesus was "the Messiah" the Christ - but did they all know precross that this meant He was YHWH? They seemed to be slow to realize that point. John the baptizer died before getting a lot of post-cross doctrine on that point.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Since the Bible doesnt directly mention the Trinity?

Eph2:18, "For through Him (Christ who is our peace, 13,14) we ... have access, by one Spirit, unto the Father." Not the Trinity? What then? WHO, then?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:

"I reviewed all of these scriptures that you presented, but I don't see the OT saints experiences with the Holy Spirit measuring up to a "rebirth". The "rebirth" explained in the NT is the regeneration of a old creature into a new creature becoming one with God via the Holy Spirit's permanent indwelment. The old is past away and all things become new."

GE:

There's NO difference between the God of the Nt and the OT; there's NO difference between His opus operandi in the OT and the NT. Man has ever been saved by grace through faith - the Faith of the Messias Yaweh, Jesus Christ, yesterday, today and tomorrow and for ever the same and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit - eternally. And NNE not born of the Spirit and not recreated by the Spirit a steadfast heart and a new spirit (Ez40,43?) shall enter into the kingdom of heaven - be saved and redeemed into eternal life no one!

 

[steaver]

(Gerhard)....

There's NO difference between the God of the Nt and the OT; there's NO difference between His opus operandi in the OT and the NT. Man has ever been saved by grace through faith - the Faith of the Messias Yaweh, Jesus Christ, yesterday, today and tomorrow and for ever the same and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit - eternally. And NNE not born of the Spirit and not recreated by the Spirit a steadfast heart and a new spirit (Ez40,43?) shall enter into the kingdom of heaven - be saved and redeemed into eternal life no one!

Do me a favor brother, because I am willing to see this differently if you can step up to the plate and answer a couple of questions without any rabbit trails or inadequate claims of "I already answered you", please critique my exposition verse by verse showing why the "Living Water/Holy Spirit" is NOT necessary for the rebirth.

Steaver)...

According to the scriptures in John 4&7 you could not include the indwellment of the Holy Spirit/Living Water nor the gift of Everlasting Life for these are all included in the "not yet given" scripture.

Here they are for reference...

Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

We see "the gift of God". This we know is "eternal life" (Jhn 4:14, Ro 6:23)

We also see "living water". This we know is the "Holy Spirit" (Jhn 7:39)

Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Four facts of this "living water", 1) It is given by Jesus 2) anyone receiving this water shall never thirst 3) this water shall be in the believer 4) this water is a well of everlasting life.

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Fact; Living Water is the Holy Spirit.

Fact; Living Water is Everlasting Life.

Fact; Living Water as described for us in chapters 4 and 7 was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification.

I ask that you refute the conclusions that I make from these scriptures and give alternative ones if you disagree.

Second I ask you to give me your definition of "born-again". Tell me why you believe one can be born-again pre-glorification without receiving the Living Water/Holy Spirit that scripture declares was given only after Jesus' glorification.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Most Bible scholars believe that verse was not in the original transcripts and was added some centuries following the writing of 1 John. However, that verse is certainly not needed as a proof text to prove that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. ...

GE:

'Most scholars' - that is a far too general claim. Eventually the whole thing of certain passages contained or not 'in the original/manuscripts', as it happened landed in the hands of only a few 'scholars' - relatively speaking. And as it happened these individuals or sometimes teams of a few individuals appeared on the scene of 'textual criticism' and other like disciplines, very markedly in time (more recent times, starting from shortly before the Reformation).

Only two major 'revolutionary' developments evolved. The first 'major' was the Textus Receptus - compiled by Desiderius Erasmus. And then another inflated 'major' occurred only as recent as the 19th and 20th centuries, which ended up with the mostly used 'Text' today, the Nestle-Aland.

These end-result 'Editions' of the 'Text' contain but insignificant differences, which, taken together, have absolutely NO decisive implications for the Divine Truth called 'The Trinity'.

In fact, the example I gave, Eph2:18, is contained verbatim in NA. So what's the big ado about? The bottom of the case is simply heresy, unbelief, blasphemous denial of the Divinity and Deity of our only Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who cannot be praised or worshipped above His very own Dignity and Exelency of being the Son of God, co-equal with God, "with God" and "being God", "in the beginning, before, and forever after. Glory to His Name; His Name: "I AM, the Only Mighty"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There Is No Salvation Outside This, Jesus!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver

"Do me a favor brother, because I am willing to see this differently if you can step up to the plate and answer a couple of questions without any rabbit trails or inadequate claims of "I already answered you", please critique my exposition verse by verse showing why the "Living Water/Holy Spirit" is NOT necessary for the rebirth."

GE:

Forgive me for not having time now. But maybe it's a good thing - because the answer is very short, in that it is God's way. God does not save but He saves as God - complete 'God' and completely as, 'God'. That is, God does not save, but He saves while being, and through being, All, of the Father, All, of the Son, and All, of the Holy Spirit. Take away (supposing) One of the Three-In-One, and 'it' (supposing) is not, 'God'; take away (supposing) any of the Full Divine Being, 'character', 'essence', of any of the Three-In-One of this, Only God, 'he' or 'it', no longer is 'God', no longer is 'mighty', no longer is anything, any more, or, ever! That, dear Steaver, makes also your salvation as the salvation of any human who lived in the past or will live in the future, absolutely conditional on the work of the Holy Spirit. It is God's way to save, that He saves while He is Himself, fully, and while He makes over, you, the one who is saved, fully. Which is the work of the Holy Spirit, fully. Which, in the one saved, is the rebirth, or the new creation, or the new heart, or he is not saved at all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My time is really up. Nevertheless, just this by-the-buy - 'The Living Water' - I would rather believe is Jesus; not the Holy Spirit.

 

[David Lamb]

God does not save but He saves as God - complete 'God' and completely as, 'God'. That is, God does not save, but He saves while being, and through being, All, of the Father, All, of the Son, and All, of the Holy Spirit.

I'm afraid I am at a loss to understand how "God does not save" and "He saves as God" can both be true. Did you perhaps mean something like this: "God the Father alone does not save, but the triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) saves sinners."

 

[BobRyan]

Those who imagine "no Holy Spirit pre-cross" are in error according to these texts

Those who imagine "no New birth pre-cross" are in error from John 3 "alone".

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel

Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.