So what's the point?

[The Bible Answer Kid]

Could it be that we have a bigger God than Calvinism or Arminianism? Could it be that God's ways are higher than ours?

Isaiah 55:8-11 says this:
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

The Bible tells us that "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

We should not use scripture to prove our theories. We should take scripture at its face value trusting that God is God. So the views of Calvinism and Arminianism are secondary issues. It seems to me that instead of debating these views that we should take heed of Christ's commands which are more edifying for us and everyone.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by The Bible Answer Kid:

We should not use scripture to prove our theories. We should take scripture at its face value trusting that God is God. So the views of Calvinism and Arminianism are secondary issues. It seems to me that instead of debating these views that we should take heed of Christ's commands which are more edifying for us and everyone.

We should use scripture to try & DISPROVE our theories, since our understanding too is fallen and corrupt. Without the understanding of scripture given by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, we remain in darkness; a victim of our own ignorance and corrupt nature. Where scripture reveals our wrong ideas and presuppositions, we are required to discard them and adjust our thinking biblically; to be renewed in our minds.

I am a calvinist simply because that is the term given to what the scripture actually teaches. In no way do I downplay the importance of Christ's commands. Arminianism attempts to create a god who is smaller than the God scripture reveals; a god who is dependent on the wills and actions of his creatures.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bible answer;

We should not use scripture to prove our theories.

I have to disagree in fact the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what was said is true and Paul admonished them for it;

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

We are instructed by God's word to be ready to give an answer as well;

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Not to mention that Scripture clearly warns us about taking the word of men.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

We should take scripture at its face value trusting that God is God.

I do agree with this but then what do we do with those who don't? Leave them with out the truth?

So the views of Calvinism and Arminianism are secondary issues.

I disagree again they're called doctrines and while they might not be soul saving they are never the less important. The truth is always important.

It seems to me that instead of debating these views that we should take heed of Christ's commands which are more edifying for us and everyone.

Should we also go on believing a false doctrine or leave our brothers to believe it and all come together ecumenically and be one church?

May God Give You Light
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

I have to disagree in fact the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what was said is true and Paul admonished them for it;

Could you possibly mean "encouraged them for it"?

 

[billwald]

Can't make any money selling a universal salvation.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by billwald:
Can't make any money selling a universal salvation.

Quit then! There is no such thing as universal salvation! How can you sell what doesn't exist?

However, there is unilateral, universal atonement for sin provided by God as an act of Grace that makes it possible for man to have everlasting life through FAITH in Jesus the atoner.

Now that sells! The salary may be low but the benefits are out of this world!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Wes;

Could you possibly mean "encouraged them for it"?

Thats exactly what I meant. I realize the term can be interpreted as a warning but it can also mean to instruct or direct them. When you take this verse below to your understanding then you will understand why it's a good idea to check everything with scripture.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Monergist,

I think you made these statements, though I might be wrong.

'I am a calvinist simply because that is the term given to what the.
scripture actually teaches.

Your statement above is about the biggest blunder you could make, especially because you believe in the concepts of this newly created Protestant, namely John Calvin who was born in 1509. Although the Roman Catholic Church paid for his education, he was never ordained into the priesthood and at age nineteen, left Paris to study law. Not too long after age twenty-three he had what he regarded as a sudden conversion, although history does not give us details. Dr. Kenneth Scott Latourette, says in his "A History of Christianity" 'By a strange coincidence he {John Calvin} was in the university when Francis Xavier and Ignatius Loyola matriculated; men who were to be outstanding in the Catholic Reformation.'

'In no way do I downplay the importance of Christ's commands.'

We hope you would not discount Jesus' commands such as taking the Gospel to every creature/person/sinner. [Mark 16:15]

'Arminianism attempts to create a god who is smaller than the God scripture reveals; a god who is dependent on the wills and actions of his creatures.'

Arminian theology uplifts a true understanding of the Triune Godhead. We do not 'gut' the Attributes of Jesus' goodness, love, mercy or Divine justice. While God woos and draws sinners to Himself, He does not override the will of human sinners. There will never be conscripts in Heaven. The Godhead's sovereignty is not compromised because it is His unchangeable will that sinners make the determination to either follow Jesus or to 'enter the wide gate' and to walk the 'broad way' that leads to destruction.' [Matthew 7:13]

The viewpoint of Calvin's predilection toward Romanism during the sixteen century has broad-brushed Calvinistic churches even into this twenty-first century.

It is a Biblical fact that God has factored into His elective plan, the free agency of the human being [Revelation 22:17f] who we and Scripture speak of as the sinners right to welcome Christ or to turn from His covenant of eternal salvation. [*John 3:18]

No one will say at the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15] "Lord, I am going to Hell because you decreed me to the regions of the damned." This would be false statement and would be outside the bounds of our Lord's Divine attributes such as His goodness and justice toward every human being. [I John 2:2] Jesus' love is infinite toward all sinners as He reaches out to them to respond in faith toward and in Him. [Hebrews 2:9d * Hebrews 11:6a,b,c] Oh, and don't miss the fact that in this passage it is the sinner who is to ' . . . diligently seek Him.'

You Five Point Calvinists are even more Roman Catholic than the present day bishop who resides in the Vatican. It's time to jump ship; you brethren have had more than 500 years to become more enlightened by the Spirit.

Best regards,
Ray

 

[Ray Berrian]

Oh, by the way that quote from Dr. Kenneth Scott Latourette is on page 752. "A History of Christianity."

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:



You Five Point Calvinists are even more Roman Catholic than the present day bishop who resides in the Vatican. It's time to jump ship; you brethren have had more than 500 years to become more enlightened by the Spirit.

Ray,

That's just plain silly. You claim to have substantial training in Theology. You should know better.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Monergist,

Study "A History of Christianity" by Dr. Kenneth Scott Latourette, (Harper & Row Publishers). Taking a good look at Augustine's educational background and that of John Calvin and you will change your mind.

Ray

 

[gb93433]

Even John Calvin didn't make such great claims as some who cliam to be Calvinists. In the Institutes he warned people of taking his theology too far. But some seem to have ignored that part.

I have even seen a number of Calvinists doubt their salvation. Just because they are not sure if they are the elect. I just go on and proclaim Jesus and make disciples. I don't worry about such nonsense. Although from time to time I do check to make sure I am on target though.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Monergist,

Study "A History of Christianity" by Dr. Kenneth Scott Latourette, (Harper & Row Publishers). Taking a good look at Augustine's educational background and that of John Calvin and you will change your mind.

Ray

...And take a look at the Apostle Paul's educational background, too. Is he to be rejected as well?

Ray, you seem to be ignoring that there was a 'Reformation.' Are you aware that hundreds of thousands of Calvin's followers (Protestants) have been put to death by the Roman Catholic church? Are you aware that in Calvin's writing's he stongly condemns Romanism? Come on, Ray. Like I said, you should know better.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Monergist,

You said,

'...And take a look at the Apostle Paul's educational background, too. Is
he to be rejected as well?

Ray, you seem to be ignoring that there was a 'Reformation.' Are you
aware that hundreds of thousands of Calvin's followers (Protestants)
have been put to death by the Roman Catholic church? Are you aware
that in Calvin's writing's he stongly condemns Romanism? Come on,
Ray. Like I said, you should know better.'

I have studied the Apostle Paul's background and probably can learn new things. You should take the epistles of Paul as coming straight from the Triune Godhead. Especially in Romans nine and Hebrews 11 where God uses Isaac to explain the deeper things of God to his two sons, in relation to the felicity of Heaven. There you will find a long list of all of the fathers of faith under the former covenant.

Yes, I know of the Roman Inquisition and the horrors of it. Do you know of Calvin and his theocracy in Geneva, where he brutalized those who did not rubber stamp his ideas?

Yes, I know of Calvin's despising certain doctrines and wicked practices of the Roman Catholic Church. He hated the idea of purgatory and of indulgences, etc., but maintained at least four out of the five planks of Calvinism. I think I recall that some say he did not believe in Limited Atonement. I will have to check.

Come on now, you know people do not give up all their beliefs overnight. How many major things have you changed in theology over the past twenty-five years?

Regards, brother . . .

 

[Monergist]

Ray,

I don't want to hijack this thread by making it an argument about Calvin

I started a new thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/62/279.html?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;

Are you aware that in Calvin's writing's he stongly condemns Romanism?

I wonder why it's said that Calvin took his own daughter to the Nun's to be raised then. Sort of like turning your child over to Satan wouldn't you say?
I know one thing for sure I'd lay my life down for my child if I had one. I'd never turn anyone over to the enemy.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
I wonder why it's said that Calvin took his own daughter to the Nun's to be raised then. Sort of like turning your child over to Satan wouldn't you say?

Can you give us a source for that?

Thanks

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;
Yes I can tell you where I read this. Baptist Board archives. Some where around 2002.,
But in the insitiutes of Christianity I read this statement from John Calvin Him self;
"I believe in the Holy Catholic Church... whence flow perpetual remission of sins"

The church doesn't for give sins Christ does that.
We can forgive sins of those who have sinned against us, but the Catholic Church
has no authority to forgive.

Then he goes on to say;

"But as it is now our purpose to discourse of the visable Church, let us learn from her single title of Mother, how useful,nay,how necessary the knowledge of her is,since there is no other means of entering into life unless she conceive us in her womb and give us birth."

I got to stop here and make this comment. The entirity of this statement from John Calvin in the Institutes of Christianity certainly should show that he wished he hadn't left the Catholic Church. That he viewed the Church as giver of life eternal. I'm sorry but what he said here is false. Even if you consider the Catholic Church the universal Church in meaning doesn't change this statement at all.
It doesn't give me any pleasure to argue over a dead man but Calvinist here have suggested that we who oppose Calvinism. Are more Catholic than they are. Not that any of us are or, not to say you have made this statement ever but, I have read it on more than one occasion.
If John was trying to reform the Catholic Church it doesn't mean he totally disagreed with it's teachings
The following is the library reference to this quote;
Op.cit.,lll:xxiii,4
I'll see if I can find the post I read the first from
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[billwald]

Studied Paul?????? Nothing to study. All we know is what he says about himself. . . and Peter's statement that Paul wrote hard stuff - which may be ironic.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Billwald;
Paul uses a lot of ironical statements, but if you read on usually you see the irony in those statements. Read the whole chapter then see if you can determine if it is irony. Peter seemed a rather simple man, ordinary in every way, which is why so many like him.
May God Bless You;
Mike