Paul preached justification by faith some 4000 years after it was introduced with Abraham before the Law.
Gen 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
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SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH
- Thread starter Alex2165
- Start date
Paul preached justification by faith some 4000 years after it was introduced with Abraham before the Law.
Gen 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Why do you make false claims. Did I say or suggest a born anew believer is "sinless perfection?" Nope. I said our born anew human spirit has been made "perfect." I cited the verse that said exactly that.
Did I say or suggest we do not think and do "sinful things" as a result of our "Old Man?" Yes, so for you to suggest I did not is yet another false claim.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Van in post #81 you said to Charlie24 "Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew?"
To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case.
Perhaps you are confusing God seeing us as righteous even though we are not with spiritually perfect. One is true the other is not.
Once again, you claim if our human spirits are made perfect means we do not do sinful things. That is yet another falsehood. Please address what I said. You seem to be trying to nullify rather than explain Hebrews 12:23.
Greetings in Christ JESUS, dear brothers,
Many years ago, (in my Bible that I kept from 1969), I studied Jonah chapter 1 and the Lord opened my eyes to perceive and understand what happens when one of His servant desobey His Word or His divine orders. What really happens? -> Well, the servant of the Lord begins to descend, and descend, descend even to the abyss, or even to the deepest hell, as happened with Jonah. Terrible, very terrible, however, afterwards the Lord, still being merciful to the disobedient servant, snatched him from the abyss, as we can see as follow:
Jonah 1:
1 Now the Word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, AND WENT DOWN TO JOPPA; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, AND WENT DOWN INTO IT, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.
4 But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them.->(As we can see and understand, there was much prejudice to others because of Jonah's disobedience). But Jonah WAS GO DOWN into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.
6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy GOD, if so be that GOD will think upon us, that we perish not.
7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
8 Then said they unto jonah:
- Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us;
- What is thine occupation?
- and whence comest thou?
- what is thy country?
- and of what people art thou?
9 And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the Lord, the GOD of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them.
11 Then said they unto Jonah, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
12 And Jonah said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.->(The scenario above described is something we will see from now on:->Daniel 12:1-3)
14 Wherefore they cried unto the Lord, and said, We beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee.
15 So they took up Jonah, AND CAST HIM FORTH INTO THE SEA: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows.
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah (Matthew 12:40). And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jonah 2 -> (From hell Jonah cries out to the Lord).
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his GOD out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me; out of the belly of HELL cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas(the abyss, now the current world of the Devil); and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about->(now, peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues, under dense/thick darkness) even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about y head.
m
6 I WENT DOWN to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my GOD.-> (John 17:14-19, take a look)
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
Many years ago, (in my Bible that I kept from 1969), I studied Jonah chapter 1 and the Lord opened my eyes to perceive and understand what happens when one of His servant desobey His Word or His divine orders. What really happens? -> Well, the servant of the Lord begins to descend, and descend, descend even to the abyss, or even to the deepest hell, as happened with Jonah. Terrible, very terrible, however, afterwards the Lord, still being merciful to the disobedient servant, snatched him from the abyss, as we can see as follow:
Jonah 1:
1 Now the Word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, AND WENT DOWN TO JOPPA; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, AND WENT DOWN INTO IT, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.
4 But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them.->(As we can see and understand, there was much prejudice to others because of Jonah's disobedience). But Jonah WAS GO DOWN into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.
6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy GOD, if so be that GOD will think upon us, that we perish not.
7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
8 Then said they unto jonah:
- Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us;
- What is thine occupation?
- and whence comest thou?
- what is thy country?
- and of what people art thou?
9 And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the Lord, the GOD of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them.
11 Then said they unto Jonah, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
12 And Jonah said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.->(The scenario above described is something we will see from now on:->Daniel 12:1-3)
14 Wherefore they cried unto the Lord, and said, We beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee.
15 So they took up Jonah, AND CAST HIM FORTH INTO THE SEA: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows.
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah (Matthew 12:40). And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jonah 2 -> (From hell Jonah cries out to the Lord).
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his GOD out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me; out of the belly of HELL cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas(the abyss, now the current world of the Devil); and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about->(now, peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues, under dense/thick darkness) even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about y head.
m
6 I WENT DOWN to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my GOD.-> (John 17:14-19, take a look)
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
Hello from Brazil
Hello, I am Oseas, I’m new here. I’m a Christian for decades, I live in the south of Brazil, near Argentina. English is not my native language, but I will try to do the best I can to be understood. I did find this Christian site and would like to share with the brothers in Christ on my faith in...
purebibleforum.com
Greetings again Silverhair. What a great day the Lord has made.
What I take from this, as it relates to John 15:4-6...
1. "I am the vine, you are the branches"
2. "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit"
From the above we find Jesus saying that if one "remains" in Him, or is "kept continually" then one will eventually bear fruit. I take this "remain" to have something to do with faith. This concept of 'only if you remain' will you bear fruit can then be applied to the sower parable. In the sower parable, soil #2 (which I'll remind that I think you agreed was not ever saved) was not a soil that "remained". It therefore seems to follow that soil #2 was a branch that...
3. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered"
So soil #2 had a taste of the divine grace, the light of life to the world. He, although never actually saved, was attached to the vine (which gave light and some life). That light of life was symbolized by the "seed" (the word of God) which sprouted and grew (meaning it sparked life within the darkness that was the mind of the soul); and that soil #2, per the parable, "received it with joy". But it did not "remain" or "abide". Because it did not remain or abide, it never grew and bore fruit and was cast out as a branch.
So the key concept in the Vine and Branch parable, imo, is the term "remain". One must "remain" to bear fruit. I suppose those that forward an Enabling Grace might see it this way. Another key concept would seem to be "being fruitful". What exactly is that besides simply good works that may be deceiving to the outside observer.
Since we both had at one time agreed that soil #2 was never saved (soil #3 is the inquiry), soil #2 is the branch that did not "remain" but was in fact, this is the key part, connected to the vine for a short time (through the seed that sparked life to sprout).
If I am to mix more analogies, (1) the seed is sown and gives a spark of life, (2) life is sparked because it is grafted into the vine (for only the Son of God is the light to the world), (3) that graft (the branch) if it "remains" will bare fruit (i.e., be saved), (4) if that graft does not "remain" it will be cast out.
In regard to your, "why would Jesus speak of three types...". I have started to realize that the parable actually gives 6 examples: (1) Soil 1, Soil 2, Soil 3, Soil 4a, Soil 4b, Soil 4c. Regarding examples 4a,b,c the parable distinguishes by how much fruit they produce. So what the parable has to say about being fruitful, it says with examples 4a,b,c. In other words...
(*) No mention of being fruitful is given to Soil #1,2,3.
(*) #3 does say it grows but "becomes unfruitful". Which can mean it gave fruit and then did not or that it never was fruitful. Both are reasonable readings without looking anywhere but that sentence.
(*) #4 actually gives three examples of giving fruitful. How some are less than others.
Back to your, why? It seems to me that the three types, if they are all never actually saved, gives good insight into how the light of Christ works in every individual. The parable is about God's love for the world and a brief look into the light of life that God brings to the world...if only they would believe not just with their minds but with their hearts. If the Son of God's light is shining within these unsaved in such a way but they eventually refuse Him...then how Great is our God. None are without excuse.
Peace to you my brother in Christ
I don't remember this distinction...it might have been your post I didn't have time to get all the way through. I agree that this kind of distinction can be a valid one (depending upon its use). One issue would be, does one claim that head faith is not salvation but heart faith is salvation? Or any other combination.
I agree of soil #2, that it says they "believed" in Mark. I have some doubts that this "believe" equates to "abiding". It seems to me that the word "abide" simply means "remain". Strong's G3306 suggests, "remain, abide....not to depart...to continue to be present...held, kept, continually." I think the common misconception about the term "abide" is that it means something like 'to rest' or 'to settle'. It does have a connotation of 'rest' or 'settle' but it means more..."remain continually".
What I take from this, as it relates to John 15:4-6...
1. "I am the vine, you are the branches"
2. "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit"
From the above we find Jesus saying that if one "remains" in Him, or is "kept continually" then one will eventually bear fruit. I take this "remain" to have something to do with faith. This concept of 'only if you remain' will you bear fruit can then be applied to the sower parable. In the sower parable, soil #2 (which I'll remind that I think you agreed was not ever saved) was not a soil that "remained". It therefore seems to follow that soil #2 was a branch that...
3. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered"
So soil #2 had a taste of the divine grace, the light of life to the world. He, although never actually saved, was attached to the vine (which gave light and some life). That light of life was symbolized by the "seed" (the word of God) which sprouted and grew (meaning it sparked life within the darkness that was the mind of the soul); and that soil #2, per the parable, "received it with joy". But it did not "remain" or "abide". Because it did not remain or abide, it never grew and bore fruit and was cast out as a branch.
So the key concept in the Vine and Branch parable, imo, is the term "remain". One must "remain" to bear fruit. I suppose those that forward an Enabling Grace might see it this way. Another key concept would seem to be "being fruitful". What exactly is that besides simply good works that may be deceiving to the outside observer.
This I agree with. But it appears that we possibly might have differing thoughts on what "abiding" is and is not. You gave a distinction of "head faith" and "heart faith" at one point. For me this distinction, when applied before salvation, means one is not saved yet (head faith), and one is actually saved (heart faith). As a comparable symbolism, outward circumcision (flesh & physical) vs inward circumcision (spiritual & heart).
Since we both had at one time agreed that soil #2 was never saved (soil #3 is the inquiry), soil #2 is the branch that did not "remain" but was in fact, this is the key part, connected to the vine for a short time (through the seed that sparked life to sprout).
If I am to mix more analogies, (1) the seed is sown and gives a spark of life, (2) life is sparked because it is grafted into the vine (for only the Son of God is the light to the world), (3) that graft (the branch) if it "remains" will bare fruit (i.e., be saved), (4) if that graft does not "remain" it will be cast out.
I agree with what seems to be the overall attempt here. Which is to say that we are told we must have faith to be saved.
I do not believe that salvation is works based.
I have in the recent past thought that soil #3 may have been part of the saved also (never thought soil #2 was saved). Never in the loss of salvation sense however. But there has been a movement within me in the other direction.
In regard to your, "why would Jesus speak of three types...". I have started to realize that the parable actually gives 6 examples: (1) Soil 1, Soil 2, Soil 3, Soil 4a, Soil 4b, Soil 4c. Regarding examples 4a,b,c the parable distinguishes by how much fruit they produce. So what the parable has to say about being fruitful, it says with examples 4a,b,c. In other words...
(*) No mention of being fruitful is given to Soil #1,2,3.
(*) #3 does say it grows but "becomes unfruitful". Which can mean it gave fruit and then did not or that it never was fruitful. Both are reasonable readings without looking anywhere but that sentence.
(*) #4 actually gives three examples of giving fruitful. How some are less than others.
Back to your, why? It seems to me that the three types, if they are all never actually saved, gives good insight into how the light of Christ works in every individual. The parable is about God's love for the world and a brief look into the light of life that God brings to the world...if only they would believe not just with their minds but with their hearts. If the Son of God's light is shining within these unsaved in such a way but they eventually refuse Him...then how Great is our God. None are without excuse.
Peace to you my brother in Christ