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Someone explain John 8:51-52?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by webdog, Apr 6, 2005.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    51 (Jesus) "Truly truly I say to you, if anyone keeps My Word he will never see death."

    52 "The Jews said to Him, 'Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and you say 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death'."

    Was Jesus lying to the Jews, being they obviously were not "elect" because of their blatant denial that Jesus is God? How could Jesus say "anyone...will never see death" to the non elect and not be lying, because according to calvinism, only those predetermined to spend eternity with Christ will "never see death"?
     
    #1 webdog, Apr 6, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Simple. It is just as He said. "If anyone keeps my word (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) he will not see death." Anyone who believes will not see death. Anyone who does not believe will see death. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Unless, of course, you have an axe to grind and are looking for some excuse for divisive behavior?
     
    #2 TCassidy, Apr 6, 2005
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Deal with it Cassidy! You have seen the "Calvinist" claims on this BBS, set the record straight!

    Are you saying that those Calvinist "preachings" are in error? If so, Say so!
     
    #3 Wes Outwest, Apr 6, 2005
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Anyone means anyone, correct? When Jesus is speaking to those who do not believe He is God and says "anyone", is he referring ONLY to the elect? The jews He was speaking to did not believe He is God. Would they be "elect"? If not, then Jesus was lying to them? Pleas explain...
     
    #4 webdog, Apr 6, 2005
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    When Jesus says that "anyone who believes" He mans "anyone who believes." That seems quite obvious.

    Why you would think the unbelieving Jews were elect is beyond me.

    And why you would accuse Jesus of being a liar is also beyond me.
     
    #5 TCassidy, Apr 6, 2005
  6. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    T cassidy;
    There is much more to his word than just one verse. Devils and demons believe and tremble. So if Devils and demons believe they will not see death either?
    You are a perfect example of Calvinism. If it don't say what you want change it.
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike :D
     
    #6 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 6, 2005
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Why do you lie about what I said and what I believe? Have you no shame at all?
     
    #7 TCassidy, Apr 6, 2005
  8. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Tcassdy
    Why do you keep telling me I lied. when it's you who have accused me falsely.
    Mike
     
    #8 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 6, 2005
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I didn't tell you you lied, that is self-evident. I asked you why. You posted, "So if Devils and demons believe they will not see death either?" I never said any such thing, and you know it. You then said, "You are a perfect example of Calvinism. If it don't say what you want change it." I didn't change anything, and you know that too.
     
    #9 TCassidy, Apr 6, 2005
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    TC, I didn't call Jesus a liar, John Calvin did. Take a step back and look at the verse without TULIP glasses.
    1. Jesus is talking to Jews who do not believe He is God.
    2. Jesus tells them "anyone" who keeps His Word, will never see death.
    3. The Jews he is talking to are included in the "anyone" phrase.
    4. According to unconditional election, the jews are not "elect".
    5. Jesus is telling the "non elect" that they can have eternal life.
    What is so hard to understand? If calvinism were true, Jesus is lying to the jews! It's fact by your won admission that "anyone" means "anyone"!
     
    #10 webdog, Apr 7, 2005
  11. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    personally I think this is yet another attempt to be devisive and misrepresent Calvinism. how Christ's words in any way destroy the doctrines of grace is beyond me. Webdog, you asked this question:

    How could Jesus say "anyone...will never see death" to the non elect and not be lying, because according to calvinism, only those predetermined to spend eternity with Christ will "never see death"?

    Because those that keep God's words are the elect. They are one and the same. That means that the elect (the ones that keep God's words regarding salvation) will 'never see death.' I just can't figure out why this is a problem to you. I would think verses like 1 John 2:2 or 2 Peter 3:9 would be the more obvious bones to pick with Calvinists.
     
    #11 whetstone, Apr 7, 2005
  12. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    No he's not. He's saying that the elect (those that obey his words) can have eternal life. You are twisting Christ's words. Have you read the verses carefully webdog?
     
    #12 whetstone, Apr 7, 2005
  13. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Only if they keep His word, which the non-elect cannot do. This really isn't difficult.
     
    #13 whatever, Apr 7, 2005
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I have no problem with John 8:51-52.

    Verse 51 tells us, Christ promises us, IF any person (either Jew or Gentile) who KEEP his commandments, shall never suffer the second death - everlasting puishment in the lake of fire. Jews were offended by Christ, what He saith to them, they accused Christ that he is of devil. But they were blind and do not understand what Christ actual talking about.

    We are election and called, BUT in 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" Clear, this verse is speak of condition warning, that we could be election and called, IF we do these things, and will not fall away, OR.... if we do NOT do these things, and will fall away, then we are not chosen or elect.

    This is not teaching of "The Perservance of the Saints" according what Calvinism teaching one of the five points similar same as security salvation as what many baptists teaching it today.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #14 DeafPosttrib, Apr 7, 2005
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Does "chosen of God" mean "elected by God"?
    Are the Jews not presented in Scripture as being "chosen of God" to be HIS people and HE their God?

    I don't think believe or unbelief enters into the discussion regarding the Jews and their election by God.
     
    #15 Wes Outwest, Apr 8, 2005
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Whetstone, you throw the word "elect" around like you pulled it straight from the Bible. I have not seen "elect" in any translation I have regarding this scripture. Care to tell me what translation you have?
     
    #16 webdog, Apr 8, 2005
  17. rc

    rc New Member

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    Webdog,
    Go to school.
    This was a simple imperative. NOT an inductive.
    It's making a simple statement.
     
    #17 rc, Apr 8, 2005
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    simple statement...but false statement.
     
    #18 webdog, Apr 9, 2005
  19. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    rc;
    One thing for sure no one here accepts you as master of theology. So knock off the attitude that you know more than anyone else. You don't and it's very obvious.
    Mike
     
    #19 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 9, 2005
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Since you deliberately misquote Jesus, I thought I would post what he said. Besides, who are you to declare the Jews are "NON-ELECT"?
     
    #20 Wes Outwest, Apr 9, 2005
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