Something I don't understand about Calvinism

Why does God delay His coming? So that none will perish.

None of whom? This is where Calvinists and Arminians differ on the interpretation. Arminians interpret this to mean all mankind. Yet that would mean God's will has already been thwarted, for few argue that all men will be saved. Tarrying seems to be defeating His purposes even further. God would fail except for those who were good enough to recognize the value of His gift.

Calvinists clearly see "any" as referring to any of God's elect. There are those of His fold that have not yet been born. Therefore, He tarries because He is not willing that any (of His elect) should perish. God's will is not thwarted, and He is victorious.

...the scriptures seem to teach that every person's name is/was found in the book of life...

You stated that correctly. The Scriptures seem to you to teach such a thing, but they don't. They teach quite the contrary.

But about those who fall away: Remember the parable of the sower, and that some seed (the Gospel) fell in places where it seemed to flourish, but could not take root. These are stones and weeds, not good ground. But that which fell upon the good ground, took root and flourished and bore fruit.

What is the difference between the good ground and the evil ground? There is no difference before the farmer removes the stones and plows under the weeds and breaks up the dirt. The farmer prepares the ground to receive the seed.

In the same way, there are those who hear the Gospel, but God has not broken their hearts. Therefore the Gospel is choked out. These are those who "were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," but fell away.

Never saved in the first place.

 

You believe in the Trinity (I assume), yet has there been any real satisfactory explanation of the concept of one God in three Persons?

Of course not.

But it's one of those things that the Scriptures teach that we merely must accept. It is beyond our human comprehension.

Eternity is of the same vein. When we pass from this life to eternal life, we will not experience a moment to moment existence. There is no time. The ideas of yesterday, today and tomorrow will be meaningless.

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is an eternal perspective.

 

You bring up a very good question, friend. Rather than just giving you 'my personal' spin on the issue, I'd like to give you two positions that are held by "Calvinists."

First, there are "three" wills with God. His decretive will (whatever He has decreed will come to pass; we have no power to break this will). His moral will (revealed in the Law; we have the power, but not the right, to break this will). His will of disposition (His attitude towards the lost / non-elect, all humanity, etc.). God's decretive will is hidden, and none may know it. What He has revealed is that He cares for all, and loves all, but His love for the elect is special. One might liken this love to the love a husband has for a wife. He loves his wife more than all others. He loves and cares for his neighbors, but it isn't the same type of love that he has for her. Spurgeon would be an example of one who held to this.

Second, that the interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is taken out of context. Let's look at it:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Pet. 3:9

Who is the Lord longsuffering toward? "Us." Who is "us"? The context of the epistle: "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." There would also be others who would / who will obtain this like faith.

So, there are two different explanations. I hope that is helpful. Good question!

Rev. G

 

Then there are those of us who believe that "all" means "all", "every" means "every", "world" means "world", "whosoever" means "whosoever" etc. etc.

I personally don't think the Bible has to be reinterpreted away from the simple and clear understanding of the words used in these passages.

The reason all are not saved is therefore not a matter of God's perfect will, but of the fact that He has allowed men to choose to accept or reject salvation through Him. But when Jesus said that God so loved the WORLD, I think Jesus knew what He was talking about. After all, He is the Creator...

 

JMF --

This is a subject I am interested in studying. I
especially need to read such threads as this
particular one, in which Scriptures are used,
rather than something said by some other
author.

Unfortunately, I have only WebTV. This limits
my screen width, making it impossible for me
to read the posts where anyone adds a long
line like the dashes in your last post, or any
other long line, like a long site address.

Would it be possible for you to cut the long line
of dashes down so that I may read your post
and others'? Thank you! 8o)

 

Aaron, if you read Revelation 22, you will read verbs. The river flows. That is a time-related movement. The tree yields its fruit every month. That means there are months. That is time. We will be serving God. That is a verb of continuing action. That involves time.

It is not time as we know it. We live in a time/space/mass continuum which will be rolled up and a new creation initiated. We don't understand what 'time' will actually mean there, but the fact that there will be time, in the sense of consecutiveness, is clearly indicated.

 

Friend, He was declaring that the fault was not with Him or with the offer or with the sovereignty of God. The problem was their own sinful wills.

As far as your second question, take a look later on in John:

Jn. 8:43, 47 - "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.... He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear because you are not of God."

Jn. 10:25-27 - Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Rev. G

 

Helen,

Out of curiosity, when you are interpreting the Bible, do you always interpret "world" to mean every single person that will ever live?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

I absolutely agree with you.

Again, I absolutely agree with you.

But these statements are not the difference between us and you. We both agree on these statements.

In 2 Peter 3:9, the obvious meaning of "any" seems the elect to me, since that is who Peter is writing to (cf. 1:1-2). I don't see any reason to change the meaning to be something else. I could see the distinction about "theolo/boulamai" (will) but am slightly persuaded that the prior answer is the best one.

The one I am least comfortable with is your view. If God was not willing that any should perish, and his will cannot be thwarted, then there would be no one in hell. Since there are people in hell, it seems that you must either admit that God's will can be thwarted by man who chooses not to believe or that your view is mistaken. Is there a third option I am not aware of?

 

JMF --

You may or may not have seen my post above--
we were writing at the same time.

If you can . . .

 

Helen,

Preach it sister! Maybe sometime the light will shine in . . . It may be that Calvin will sitting in the back pew in the Temple above for teaching such vile error.

 

Ken Hamilton,

The word of the day is 'context.'

Respectfully,

Ray

 

Just a caution...sometimes those (not you, obviously) who take "all" to always mean "all" argue for universalism. They take passages such as Rom. 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22 and 1 Tim. 4:10 to "prove" universalism.

Rom. 5:18 - Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

1 Cor. 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."

1 Tim. 4:10 - "...because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe."

Does "all" always mean "all"? What about the following?

Does "all" mean "all" in Mt. 3:5-6 (also Mk. 1:5)?
Did every single individual in Judea and the surrounding region get baptized by John the Baptist?

Did the early Church have favor with every single individual in Jerusalem (Acts 2:47)? If so, then why was persecution experienced?

Rev. G

 

Good answer, Rev. I was poised to invoke the "all Judea" clause myself.

 

The same category. He gives us eternal life, life without beginning or end. We are also sons of God and brothers of Jesus.