Is anybody on here familar with Southern Indiana Baptist College? They are an independent baptist college that offers associates, bachelors, masters, and doctorates. They say their credits are accepted by Hyles-Anderson, Crown,Commonwealth Baptist and Shawnee Baptist Colleges. They seem simular to Slidell Baptist Seminary except that they don't claim to be accredited. They also advertise in Sword of the Lord and Revival Fires.
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Southern Indiana Baptist College
- Thread starter labaptist
- Start date
PreachTREE
New Member
Dale-c said:
I second that. :thumbs:
labaptist said:
Southern Indiana Baptist College is a great place to help its "administrators" make some easy money. I hope no one takes it seriously. No one who really cares about a legitimate education will mess with it. The only good thing is that they're not charging exorbitant amounts for meaningless degrees.
* Associate............$500.00 * Master..............$500.00
* Bachelor..............$500.00 * Doctorate.........$500.00
Bill
Want my advice? Run, don't walk, away from that "school".
"Each course comes with an outline booklet and four 90 min. cassettes"
Four 90 Minute cassettes = 360 minutes which equals 6 Hours worth of lectures. Most colleges/universities require much more than that.
Through Liberty University's distance learning program, where I earned my first MA degree, my coures were MUCH more detailed than that. For example my "church history two" course had 25 lectures, on 13 dvds, and each lesson was about an hour long (give or take a few minutes). Let's do the math. 25 one hour lectures is 25 hours worth of lectures (give or take a few minutes).
So, at one school you get about 6 hours worth of lectures per class while at the other you get about 25 hours worth of lectures per course.
I am currently working on my MA in History at a State University (on campus). Each semester is what some 15/16 weeks long (not sure, just off the top of my head). Usually my classes meet once per week at night for three hours. Want to do the math? Well minus holidays/breaktime (etc) it comes out to about 30 hours worth of lectures per class.
So, let's see, two accredited Universities require between 25 - 30 hours of lectures per class. This "Southern Indiana Baptist College" only requires about 6 hours of lectures per class. That is a big difference. Where do you think you are going to get the better education? Where will you get the most information? Not at SIBC.
"Your Bible is your only text book for all courses"
==In other words you are not going to come away with an understanding of the subjects. You will not be aware of the various views that Godly men have put forward on important subjects, nor will you be aware of the various errors that false teachers have put forward. You will not get a good education in church history (after the book of Acts) and you will not get the benefit of learning American Church History. There is a reason college/universities require textbooks (even in Bible courses). This is not Sunday school.
At Liberty most courses required two or more textbooks. In my current program most courses also require two or more textbooks. I had a class last semester that required six books and in the fall I have a class that requires ten books.
"An awesome value
Associate............$500.00 Master..............$500.00
Bachelor..............$500.00
Doctorate........$500.00"
==Well, you get what you pay for (see above). It maybe cheap but I assure you, when you compare its quality to real schools, it is of little/no value.
"Flexible programs allow you to work at your own pace"
==This is fine in some contexts. However in light of the other stuff it is just another reason for me to think that "Southern Indiana Baptist College" is nothing but a degree mill.
The very idea that you can earn a Masters or Doctorate degree for $500.00, with only 6 hours worth of lectures, and no textbooks is laughable. Don't throw your money away on any of their programs.
You want to earn a real degree? You can do it via distance education from many good schools.
www.liberty.edu
www.lru.edu
www.ses.edu
"Each course comes with an outline booklet and four 90 min. cassettes"
Four 90 Minute cassettes = 360 minutes which equals 6 Hours worth of lectures. Most colleges/universities require much more than that.
Through Liberty University's distance learning program, where I earned my first MA degree, my coures were MUCH more detailed than that. For example my "church history two" course had 25 lectures, on 13 dvds, and each lesson was about an hour long (give or take a few minutes). Let's do the math. 25 one hour lectures is 25 hours worth of lectures (give or take a few minutes).
So, at one school you get about 6 hours worth of lectures per class while at the other you get about 25 hours worth of lectures per course.
I am currently working on my MA in History at a State University (on campus). Each semester is what some 15/16 weeks long (not sure, just off the top of my head). Usually my classes meet once per week at night for three hours. Want to do the math? Well minus holidays/breaktime (etc) it comes out to about 30 hours worth of lectures per class.
So, let's see, two accredited Universities require between 25 - 30 hours of lectures per class. This "Southern Indiana Baptist College" only requires about 6 hours of lectures per class. That is a big difference. Where do you think you are going to get the better education? Where will you get the most information? Not at SIBC.
"Your Bible is your only text book for all courses"
==In other words you are not going to come away with an understanding of the subjects. You will not be aware of the various views that Godly men have put forward on important subjects, nor will you be aware of the various errors that false teachers have put forward. You will not get a good education in church history (after the book of Acts) and you will not get the benefit of learning American Church History. There is a reason college/universities require textbooks (even in Bible courses). This is not Sunday school.
At Liberty most courses required two or more textbooks. In my current program most courses also require two or more textbooks. I had a class last semester that required six books and in the fall I have a class that requires ten books.
"An awesome value
Associate............$500.00 Master..............$500.00
Bachelor..............$500.00
Doctorate........$500.00"
==Well, you get what you pay for (see above). It maybe cheap but I assure you, when you compare its quality to real schools, it is of little/no value.
"Flexible programs allow you to work at your own pace"
==This is fine in some contexts. However in light of the other stuff it is just another reason for me to think that "Southern Indiana Baptist College" is nothing but a degree mill.
The very idea that you can earn a Masters or Doctorate degree for $500.00, with only 6 hours worth of lectures, and no textbooks is laughable. Don't throw your money away on any of their programs.
You want to earn a real degree? You can do it via distance education from many good schools.
www.liberty.edu
www.lru.edu
www.ses.edu
PrimePower7
New Member
hmmm...yep, one of the profs
Well, folks. I suppose much of what you have said thus far is true. What I want you to understand, though, is that not everyone puts the same weight on the word "degree". What's more...some people just want to know that you have completed a course of study.
I too am a student at LU made possible by my military benefits. However, I am a teacher at the SIBC and make the six hours of instruction well worth the listener's time. Should they come away with the feeling that they are as "prepared" as a student at LU? Perhaps not, but it is much less expensive and it does represent time invested in a course of study.
Thanks
Well, folks. I suppose much of what you have said thus far is true. What I want you to understand, though, is that not everyone puts the same weight on the word "degree". What's more...some people just want to know that you have completed a course of study.
I too am a student at LU made possible by my military benefits. However, I am a teacher at the SIBC and make the six hours of instruction well worth the listener's time. Should they come away with the feeling that they are as "prepared" as a student at LU? Perhaps not, but it is much less expensive and it does represent time invested in a course of study.
Thanks
PrimePower7 said:
==As I pointed out that six hours is just not up to academic standards. My, even Andersonville requires more than that! If someone just wants " to know that you have completed a course of study" let them enroll in a certificate program (like Falwell's LHBI). People should not enroll in a obvious degree mill just to have something to be proud of. If someone wants an education and degree then they should get an education from a real school/university. I'm sorry for sounding so harsh but these people are selling worthless degrees to people who often don't know any better. If you are a teacher at SIBC I would urge you to break your ties with them so that you are not seen as being mixed up with them.
Compare your coursework at Liberty University to what students are required to do at Southern Indiana Baptist College. Be honest now, you know there is no comparison.
PrimePower7 said:
==Then they should not get the degree and the school has done them a great dis-service and should refund their money. Anyone who enrolls in a graduate level program should expect to do graduate level work. If they are not doing graduate level work then they should complain, withdraw, and demand a refund.
PrimePower7 said:
==Being less expensive is meaningless when the program (ie...workload) is clearly well below normal graduate level standards.
Again I would encourage everyone to run, not walk, away from such schools. There are fine schools out there that offer distance learning programs today. There is no reason for someone to waste their money and time on substandard "degree" programs.
PrimePower7
New Member
Reply To Martin
Just as you would encourage me to break ties with SIBC, I would encourage you to divorce the idea that you are the degree police. What SIBC is doing is not illegal nor misleading. There is not, to my knowledge, any student of SIBC who believes they are living up to any particular "standard" (which, you must admit, is non-existent) by getting a degree at SIBC.
Furthermore, there are accredited schools out there that I have never heard of, so just having a 25-hour course doesn't tell me anything about a class that any school requires.
Take for instance, LU's THEO 201 and 202: You would think that since LU gives the class, it has stringent requirements for it's systematic theology classes. Well, I'll tell you that I did not view a single DVD lesson from the 202 class and I received an A. That's right, I didn't even do 6 hours worth of class. So, please stop the generalizations. Stop the "holy cause" of speaking out against schools that are as fundamental as you in the name of substantiating your own education.
Thanks for your time,
Bill
Just as you would encourage me to break ties with SIBC, I would encourage you to divorce the idea that you are the degree police. What SIBC is doing is not illegal nor misleading. There is not, to my knowledge, any student of SIBC who believes they are living up to any particular "standard" (which, you must admit, is non-existent) by getting a degree at SIBC.
Furthermore, there are accredited schools out there that I have never heard of, so just having a 25-hour course doesn't tell me anything about a class that any school requires.
Take for instance, LU's THEO 201 and 202: You would think that since LU gives the class, it has stringent requirements for it's systematic theology classes. Well, I'll tell you that I did not view a single DVD lesson from the 202 class and I received an A. That's right, I didn't even do 6 hours worth of class. So, please stop the generalizations. Stop the "holy cause" of speaking out against schools that are as fundamental as you in the name of substantiating your own education.
Thanks for your time,
Bill
PrimePower7
New Member
Reply To Labaptist
Greetings,
I teach "Problem Passages", "John 1", "John 2", "1 & 2 Peter" and I am working on a class on Genesis.
Thanks for your interest.
Bill
Greetings,
I teach "Problem Passages", "John 1", "John 2", "1 & 2 Peter" and I am working on a class on Genesis.
Thanks for your interest.
Bill
PrimePower7 said:
==I never said it was illegal (though I think it should be and I ""think"" it is in certain states). Misleading, yes, it is misleading to claim that what I saw described on that website is graduate level work. You know it is not graduate level work just as I do and most everyone else on this board who has looked at the website.
PrimePower7 said:
==So there is no such thing as a general academic standard? I wonder if you hold to that position when you go to the doctor? Does it matter to you if that person has earned a degree from a school that met certain academic standards? Of course it does! The same is true with teachers, bankers, lawyers, and preachers. If a person is going to claim they have a Masters degree then they need to have earned that degree from a school that requires graduate level work. Six hours of lectures (and no textbooks) per course is not, and I repeat, is not graduate (much less doctoral) level work. Period. If anyone claims it is then they either don't know anything about educational/academic standards (which do, btw, exist) or they are being willfully misleading.
PrimePower7 said:
==I am talking about the quality of lecture per class. An accredited, or even non-accredited, school that requires 25-30hrs of lectures for a class (on top of research papers, readings from textbooks, homework, other assignments) is far about six hours of lectures with no textbook. The latter is certainly, and I mean certainly, not graduate level (much less doctoral level) work.
PrimePower7 said:
==First, that is an undergraduate course. We are talking about graduate courses/degrees. My experience with Liberty's MA program was very different from what you describe. The work level in Liberty's MA (graduate) program was much more demanding. Second, many online university courses do not contain audio/video lectures (but those that do are well above 6hrs per course) and make up for the lack of lectures in work and readings. Those courses require textbooks which SIBC brags about not requiring.
PrimePower7 said:
==Since you clearly don't know what you are talking about (concerning graduate level academic standards, online courses, etc) I will ignore the sarcasm in your paragraph.
It is not the degree alone that matters, it is the level of work. Having a MA degree hanging on your wall is meaningless if you did not do graduate (MA) level work to earn it. Point: If a person has a PhD then I expect that they did the very difficult work required in a real doctoral program. If a person has a MA/MDiv then I expect that they did graduate level work in order to ""EARN"" that graduate degree.
I am very much against ""schools"" like SIBC. Why? Because they take people's money and offer degrees that are not what they claim to be. The programs described on that website (the PDF catalog) are not graduate level programs, much less doctoral level. A person who earns a Masters degree from Liberty University has done graduate level work and has thus earned a graduate level degree. A person who has earned a PhD from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary has done doctoral level work and earned that degree (real PhDs/ThDs are very difficult to earn).
I challenge you: Go online and compare catalogs. Compare Dallas Theological Seminary's PhD/ThD to SIBC's ThD. Compare Southeastern's MDiv with SIBC's MDiv, compare Liberty's ThM to SIBC's. Exam the demands. Note how low SIBC's academic standards/demands are in comparison. Compare SIBC to secular univerisites as well.
I'm sorry, but what I saw on that PDF catalog for SIBC is not graduate/doctoral level work.
It took me 3 years at 4 hours per week to get a black belt back when I was 16.
At least 624 hours of training logged (does not include unlogged training).
Nowadays, people can get them in a year and all they have to do is send some money in a watch DVD's and take a test on a cam corder and send it in....with a check.
The point: people get a little suspicious when it takes 6 hours of
course time to get an advanced degree.
At least 624 hours of training logged (does not include unlogged training).
Nowadays, people can get them in a year and all they have to do is send some money in a watch DVD's and take a test on a cam corder and send it in....with a check.
The point: people get a little suspicious when it takes 6 hours of
course time to get an advanced degree.
paidagogos
Active Member
Questions about quality
BTW, why would anyone pay for a degree when better learning resources are available via the Internet for FREE? Check out the following:
http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/
Perhaps for very undiscerning people. However, how do you square this with the poor testimony protrayed to the world when discerning folks do ask questions and find our Christian education to be inferior? Does God not care about quality? Is shoddy and mediocre good enough for God? If you're just interested in learning, why bother with a sham degree at all?PrimePower7 said:
Well, this sounds as if you are a better teacher than the rest of us if you can do in six hours what we do in twenty-five to thirty hours.
If you are presently a student at LU, then are you qualified to teach at seminary/college level? What are your academic credentials? Good teaching is not just teaching your own college/seminary notes. Young teachers do this many times--it's quick and easy without expertise.
BTW, why would anyone pay for a degree when better learning resources are available via the Internet for FREE? Check out the following:
http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/
paidagogos
Active Member
More questions
With your admission (or boast), I'm not sure that I would hire you to teach for me.
In light of your posted comments, I question your own understanding of education and learning. Perhaps, your own view of education is lacking which may be the reason you are defending SIBC.
Bill, my objection to schools awarding inflated degrees is that they appeal to the ego for their students. This is pride and sin. To award doctorates for Bible institute level work is blatantly dishonest. Make the degree honestly reflect the level of work. Furthermore, these schools are not a good testimony for the cause of Christ. Although I am not agruing for high-brow schools or necessarily accredited schools, I am contending for integrity and quality that is honoring and pleasing to the Lord.
Thank you for your time and reading.
NO, and I don't think anyone has said this. However, I am knowledgeable enough to judge quality and you can't take that away from me. Also, I have every right and reason to question, assess and state my opinion. So, your statement is pretty meaningless.PrimePower7 said:
Again, I have not read anyone making this accusation. Legal, however, is not synonymous with good, ethical, right, etc. For the Christian, the question is whether it glorifies and pleases God? Can an admittedly substandard school be honoring and pleasing to God? Is there any excuse before God for doing less than our best? IMHO, God expects our best and I think that I can quote supporting Scriptures if you can't find them in your Bible.
The use of the word degree intimates a standard comparible to the general level of competence and learning of other degree holders. When you go to a medical doctor, you do expect some general level of knowledge and competence, I suppose. You're blowing smoke here.
Yes, but a six-hour course does tell me something. You cannot teach as much material in six hours as you can in twenty-five.
So what? Are you bragging or confessing? Because I was a bright, well-read student, I skimmed through most of my undergraduate courses with decent grades and focused on my social life much to my later sorrow and regret. However, I got serious in grad school and always did more than was required. If you know anything about education, then you know there is scope and sequence. You may have skinned by the sequence but you are probably deficient in your scope (i.e. breadth). Passing the final exam is not the mark of learning or knowledge. It is only one objective indicator. Test-taking abilities are not necessarily the proof of knowledge and high cognitive functioning. Interaction with the course material, including the lectures, is part of the learning process. The student who views the lectures and passes the exam with an A is better prepared than the student who passes the exam with an A on test savvy alone.
With your admission (or boast), I'm not sure that I would hire you to teach for me.
In light of your posted comments, I question your own understanding of education and learning. Perhaps, your own view of education is lacking which may be the reason you are defending SIBC.
Bill, my objection to schools awarding inflated degrees is that they appeal to the ego for their students. This is pride and sin. To award doctorates for Bible institute level work is blatantly dishonest. Make the degree honestly reflect the level of work. Furthermore, these schools are not a good testimony for the cause of Christ. Although I am not agruing for high-brow schools or necessarily accredited schools, I am contending for integrity and quality that is honoring and pleasing to the Lord.
Thank you for your time and reading.
paidagogos
Active Member
Available for review
For example, could we review your lectures on DVD or audiotape? What are your major assignments for the aforementioned courses? What are your textbooks? Approximately how many pages of reading do you proscribe for each course? Could we see your test questions?
As teachers know, there is a great variation of validity, reliability and rigor among tests. In reviewing some of the tests administered by less than wonderful teachers in less than wonderful schools, the test items seem to run as follows:
This, needless to say, is a much easier item than saying something like:
PrimePower7 said:
Although there are others on this board that are probably more eminently qualified than I am, I do have some knowledge, experience and competence. Would you be willing to submit what you teach for review and critique?PrimePower7 said:
For example, could we review your lectures on DVD or audiotape? What are your major assignments for the aforementioned courses? What are your textbooks? Approximately how many pages of reading do you proscribe for each course? Could we see your test questions?
As teachers know, there is a great variation of validity, reliability and rigor among tests. In reviewing some of the tests administered by less than wonderful teachers in less than wonderful schools, the test items seem to run as follows:
“Who were the three disciples that were with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration?”
This, needless to say, is a much easier item than saying something like:
“Discuss the meaning of the events in the Transfiguration of Christ as described in Matthew 17, Mark 9 and Luke 9. Discuss the meaning of metamorphoo and compare with other uses in Scripture. Describe, delineate and support your interpretation of any symbolism (e.g. raiment, Moses, Elijah, etc.) in the passages. Give particular attention and critique Peter’s response. What are the implications of this event?”
A test is not made good or rigorous by its many questions but by the quality of the questions.
Test questions.
Now that is a test question. :thumbs:
I thought you had to have so many lecture hours per class at a graduate level. And this is a set standard that doesn't change.
Is there a set standard, for how man quality hours of lecture there is supposed to be per class.
Ehud
Now that is a test question. :thumbs:
I thought you had to have so many lecture hours per class at a graduate level. And this is a set standard that doesn't change.
Is there a set standard, for how man quality hours of lecture there is supposed to be per class.
Ehud
Ehud said:
A credit (one credit) = 15 hours of instruction. These may be "academic" hours or 50 minutes.
So a 4-credit course (typical of grad work) would be AT LEAST 50 clock hours of face-to-face contact.
If you have an earned BA (132 credits) and full MDiv (96 grad credits) you would still need 32-36 MORE grad credits.
Or just pay $500 for a worthless ego trip . .
SIBC Reponse
Gentlemen,
I really "don't have a dog in this fight" or "a horse in this race!"
But generally speaking, who would want to go to a school where the entire school system is an extension of that particular small and provincial IBF church? And by proxy, it is probably an extension of the IBF pastor's views on everything?
And I would bet (if I were a betting man), that they are cultically strong on "pastoral authority" even and up to being "popishly" slaves to him?! "One man, One plan" don't ya know!
WOW! Now that is just a bit scary even when one leaves the academic issues off to the side!!!:laugh:
sdg!
rd
Gentlemen,
I really "don't have a dog in this fight" or "a horse in this race!"
But generally speaking, who would want to go to a school where the entire school system is an extension of that particular small and provincial IBF church? And by proxy, it is probably an extension of the IBF pastor's views on everything?
And I would bet (if I were a betting man), that they are cultically strong on "pastoral authority" even and up to being "popishly" slaves to him?! "One man, One plan" don't ya know!
WOW! Now that is just a bit scary even when one leaves the academic issues off to the side!!!:laugh:
sdg!
rd