Speeding

[Claudia_T]

see I dont agree with bapmom's husband over there...

 

[tinytim]

This is Bapmom's husband

Our six children are our children by reason of genetics - born of our seed, if you will. Nothing they or us can do or say will change the law of genetics, of parentage, of descendancy. They will always be our children. We can disown each other if the person-to-person relationship deteriorates enough, but the denial of our link does not change genetics. This is salvation. But salvation is better - incorruptible seed. He will never deny us because we became genetically his by being born of that incorruptible seed and being chosen by Him to be adopted into His family. The two-fold bond is stronger than human blood ties. We are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin - death in hell. We may suffer natural consequences of our sin - drugs, alcohol, speeding tickets, a posse on our tail for knocking over the First National Bank - which God will allow us to suffer because He is our Father and He chastises us. But death in Hell is an option forever removed from having any power over us. Those natural consequences to sin after we are saved include a disrupted relationship with our Heavenly Father, just like can happen between children and their parents when they disobey and sin. the personal relationship can change, but not the family relationship in the sense of genetics and adoption. One more thing - All sin that any of us have ever or will ever sin was future sin to the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross. He paid for it ALL. There is no sin I can commit that He didn't already know about and has already offered complete payment for. It has to be incorruptible seed because after I sin, I need that seed to keep me from losing my salvation - that's why losing it is not possible. Is a speeding Christian possible? YES! Has it affected his relationship with God and the Highway Patrol? YES!

Exactly... BTW... Hi!

 

[bapmom]

(mom here again)
Brother Bob,

where do you get "can't die" equals "can't sin"? Cannot die is referring to the spiritual death in Hell.....that doesn't mean we can no longer sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

mom here again)
Brother Bob,

where do you get "can't die" equals "can't sin"? Cannot die is referring to the spiritual death in Hell.....that doesn't mean we can no longer sin

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is that "incorruptible seed" I was talking about.

 

[Claudia_T]

Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[tinytim]

I think it would be the wilful persistant sinner who would be lost.

I think Claudia has hit something here...

A wilful persistant sinner probably isn't saved....

The word commiteth is a present ongoing situation...

A Christian will not want to sin... but sin we will. And then it will eat away at us until we make it right.

A fish out of water cannot survive.
A Child of God in sin will not survive.

We will crave to be back in His will until we come back, and confess our sins....
Does that make us lost? No.

If we quit being God's child, then He would have no right to discipline us..

 

[Brother Bob]

A Christian will not want to sin... but sin we will. And then it will eat away at us until we make it right.

So, if someone climbs his neighbors wife then he wanted to and therefore was not a Christian? Is that what you are saying?

 

[tinytim]

What I am saying is when we sin... we will be chastised by God until we confess it.. we won't be able to rest until we confess that it was a sin.

If a lost person sins, it is no biggie... God does not chastise him.. the lost person is not one of God's children.

So to answer your question about adultery...
If a Christian commits adultery, God will not give up on him (or her) until they confess to God that what they did was a sin, and see the sin the way God does... disgusting.

The Holy Ghost in us will keep bringing the sin to mind until we deal with it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tim;
Do you ever wonder that maybe thats why the churches are in such a shape.
What do you do with all these scriptures, just look over them?

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

A Christian will not want to sin... but sin we will. And then it will eat away at us until we make it right.

I ask you a question in accordance with your post that if a man takes his neighbors wife then he surely wanted to and according to your definition then he is not a Christian for a Christian would not want to commit adultery.

 

[Claudia_T]

Tim,

wow what an idea that is! That makes lots of sense to me... it really does.

"If we quit being God's child, then He would have no right to discipline us.."

 

[Brother Bob]

We are all God's children by creation. I think that would be an impossible task.

 

[J. Jump]

I think it would be the wilful persistant sinner who would be lost.

Claudia you are becoming more of a modern-day Baptist with each post. You better watch out

The problem is that we are coming to a conclusion on one's eternal destination based on works. That is fundamentally flawed. It goes back to a post where I said part of the problem is that we can't even agree on what it means to be a Christian or what it means to be saved.

The Bible tells us that if we are talking about eternal (spiritual) salvation then we can't look at works at the same time. The only thing that is in view when discussing eternal (spiritual) salvation is faith in the finished work of Christ.

So when a question is asked like mine or any other question that says is a person saved or lost if they do this or that, the question should be asked well what do they believe about the finished work of Christ.

That is the only thing that can tell us whether a person is saved or not. Unfortunately our modern-day churches have put an unScriptural test on folks.

The reason being is there is no way to tell. Tiny Tim said this "A wilful persistant sinner probably isn't saved...."

Well okay then what is the standard? If I disobey the speed limit two times and am unrepentant about it am I saved? If I willfully broke the speed limit 1 month out of the year am I saved? If I break the speed limit 11 months out of the year am I saved? If I break the speed limit just one year out of my life am I saved?

See there is no line to draw in the sand. So the problem is that one can never truly know whether they are saved or not. And that contradicts Scripture, because Scripture says we can no for certain that we are saved. And it contradicts Scripture in that it places eternal (spiritual) salvation into the realm of process, when the Bible says it is a one-time event.

Bottom line is we have to get back to a Biblical definition of eternal (spiritual) salvation and that is anyone that believes in the finished, substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, on the cross, on their behalf a sinner.

The Bible says if we believe that then we are saved. And at the very moment we believe eternal (spiritual) salvation is never an issue again.

Once we are saved, we are saved unto good works, and works become a whole separate issue. That was basically the whole point of this thread is to show the inconsistencies that come up when we place works into the picture of salvation in any form or fashion.

If we want to know if someone is saved, then ask them what they believe about Jesus Christ. If they believe He was a nice guy and had some good principals to live by then they aren't saved according to Scripture. If they say that He died in their place because they are a sinner then according to Scripture they are saved.

Works whether committing adultery, cheating, stealing, speeding, whatever you want to lump into the picture have nothing to do with salvation. They have everything to do with discipleship. Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.

 

[bapmom]

bapmom's husband - Missionary Boy


Brother Bob, Quoting scripture is awesome, but how about applying that Scripture and respond to my post? In an effort to lead by example, I shall do this with your post.

I John 5:18 That new man that is born in us does not sin, but we still carry around that old nature - hence the speeding - and as Tiny Tim said, we feel guilt and need to get our relationship right with God again.

I John 2:1 If a person who sins cannot be saved, then why does he give a way to fix our unrepented sin before God by employing a lawyer on our behalf when we want to get it right? Keep in mind he's talking to saved people (My little children)

I John 2:3-4 The word "know" does not just imply knowledge, it also has a connotation of intimate awareness and dwelling with. (And Adam knew his wife, and she bare a son) If you claim to be so intimately close to Jesus, and live with unrepentant sin in your life, you are a lying saved person, and are not walking closely with Him. Just like we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at salvation(The earnest of our salvation), we are not always filled with the Holy Spirit. We are filled with the flesh, not the Holy Spirit at those speeding times.

I John 1:6-9 "We do not the truth" It doesn't say we don't have the truth, just that we are not doing it.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" Saved people, remember, and they all have sin.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" He makes a provision for saved people to make their relationship right with God

VS 10 He reiterates vs 8
"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" WE are not following the scripture when we sin, not losing our salvation.

II Timothy 1:12 I committed my salvation to Him when I trusted Christ - God will be faithful and keep it for me - I have no power to lose it or cast it away.

BTW, Didn't Paul characterize himself as having to die daily in the struggle with his sin, and the chief of sinners? He must not be saved, and the writer of most of our New Testament (14 books) must not have the word in him.

BTW2, If Suicide is a sin unable to be repented of, wouldn't that make Jesus' death a suicide? He chose to die for us before the world began (Titus 1:2), "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and he gave up the ghost"

 

[J. Jump]

Tim,

wow what an idea that is! That makes lots of sense to me... it really does.

"If we quit being God's child, then He would have no right to discipline us.."

How can that make sense when it is an impossibility? You can't "quit" being a child of God. You either are not or you are and will be forever. There is no going back and forth.

We are all God's children by creation.

No that makes us all God's creatures by creation. Being a child of God has to do with salvation, not creation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Works whether committing adultery, cheating, stealing, speeding, whatever you want to lump into the picture have nothing to do with salvation. They have everything to do with discipleship. Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.

Mat 23:26[Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 

[hillclimber1]

For each of you with a license: You have sped.

I'm a trucker and speed limits are "suggestions" to me. No tickets, no wrecks. Am I going to hell? Only a fool would make an assumption based on this.

I'm more likely to get an "impedance of traffic flow" ticket by driving 55 in any LA freeway than one for doing 65, given the limit is 55.

 

[tinytim]

Tim;
Do you ever wonder that maybe thats why the churches are in such a shape.
What do you do with all these scriptures, just look over them?

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


I ask you a question in accordance with your post that if a man takes his neighbors wife then he surely wanted to and according to your definition then he is not a Christian for a Christian would not want to commit adultery.

We know that the Bible doesn't contradict itself...
so let's compare...
1 John 1:8
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

and

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The first verse says we sin.. the second says we "sinneth" not....
There is a difference between sin and sinneth... Sinneth means we are living in a persistent state of sin... It is like we are living a life, and saying "I don't care if I sin... so what" I am convinced a person that is like that is not saved... They have not met the Christ of Calvary, because if they had, they would care about what they did to Christ.

BTW, you listed 1 jo5:18 twice :thumbsup:

as for
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Again the word keepeth is refering to a persistant state of sinfulness...
And this is true.. a person that keeps on sinning... and has no remorse, has not met Christ...

as for
1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments

That one goes with verse 4 above....The very fact that we see sin as disgusting, vile, and filthy, and want to live right means that we know Him. We are under the influence of the Holy Ghost.

as for
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Yep, I trust Christ to keep me. And he is able. I have committed my life to him, and He will keep it.

Sometimes we fall into temptation... Something looks good and we go for it... it is a sin.. we fall, but God is there to convict us, chastise us, and pick us back up. Does it make it right? NO... but thank God He doesn't give up on us...

 

[J. Jump]

For each of you with a license: You have sped.

I'm a trucker and speed limits are "suggestions" to me. No tickets, no wrecks. Am I going to hell? Only a fool would make an assumption based on this.

I'm more likely to get an "impedance of traffic flow" ticket by driving 55 in any LA freeway than one for doing 65, given the limit is 55.

Well Hillclimber you are either unsaved or you have destroyed both sides of the arguments that have been given here to date

The ones that have works attached to salvation have to say you are unsaved to be consistent, and the others aren't correct, because it doesn't seem that you are being chastened to the point of repentance at least to date

 

[Brother Bob]

bapmom's husband - Missionary Boy


Brother Bob, Quoting scripture is awesome, but how about applying that Scripture and respond to my post? In an effort to lead by example, I shall do this with your post.

I John 5:18 That new man that is born in us does not sin, but we still carry around that old nature - hence the speeding - and as Tiny Tim said, we feel guilt and need to get our relationship right with God again.

I John 2:1 If a person who sins cannot be saved, then why does he give a way to fix our unrepented sin before God by employing a lawyer on our behalf when we want to get it right? Keep in mind he's talking to saved people (My little children)

I John 2:3-4 The word "know" does not just imply knowledge, it also has a connotation of intimate awareness and dwelling with. (And Adam knew his wife, and she bare a son) If you claim to be so intimately close to Jesus, and live with unrepentant sin in your life, you are a lying saved person, and are not walking closely with Him. Just like we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at salvation(The earnest of our salvation), we are not always filled with the Holy Spirit. We are filled with the flesh, not the Holy Spirit at those speeding times.

I John 1:6-9 "We do not the truth" It doesn't say we don't have the truth, just that we are not doing it.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" Saved people, remember, and they all have sin.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" He makes a provision for saved people to make their relationship right with God

VS 10 He reiterates vs 8
"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" WE are not following the scripture when we sin, not losing our salvation.

II Timothy 1:12 I committed my salvation to Him when I trusted Christ - God will be faithful and keep it for me - I have no power to lose it or cast it away.

BTW, Didn't Paul characterize himself as having to die daily in the struggle with his sin, and the chief of sinners? He must not be saved, and the writer of most of our New Testament (14 books) must not have the word in him.

BTW2, If Suicide is a sin unable to be repented of, wouldn't that make Jesus' death a suicide? He chose to die for us before the world began (Titus 1:2), "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and he gave up the ghost"

Brother Bob, Quoting scripture is awesome, but how about applying that Scripture and respond to my post? In an effort to lead by example, I shall do this with your post.

I John 5:18 That new man that is born in us does not sin, but we still carry around that old nature - hence the speeding - and as Tiny Tim said, we feel guilt and need to get our relationship right with God again. You are the first on here that says the inward part does not sin, I thank you.
I agree with the outward part but not to the point of adultery.

I John 2:1 If a person who sins cannot be saved, then why does he give a way to fix our unrepented sin before God by employing a lawyer on our behalf when we want to get it right? Keep in mind he's talking to saved people (My little children)Because as I have quoted on here many times, there is a sin and there is a sin unto death which the children of God do not do.

I John 2:3-4 The word "know" does not just imply knowledge, it also has a connotation of intimate awareness and dwelling with. (And Adam knew his wife, and she bare a son) If you claim to be so intimately close to Jesus, and live with unrepentant sin in your life, you are a lying saved person, and are not walking closely with Him. Just like we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at salvation(The earnest of our salvation), we are not always filled with the Holy Spirit. We are filled with the flesh, not the Holy Spirit at those speeding times. I agree to the point of lying saved person. There shall be no liars in Heaven but they have their part in the Lake.

I John 1:6-9 "We do not the truth" It doesn't say we don't have the truth, just that we are not doing it.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" Saved people, remember, and they all have sin. I agree whole heartly but not a sin unto death, like adultery.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" He makes a provision for saved people to make their relationship right with God
If you will go back and read again it is talking to the unsaved.
VS 10 He reiterates vs 8
"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" WE are not following the scripture when we sin, not losing our salvation. Again, I agree but not sin unto death.

II Timothy 1:12 I committed my salvation to Him when I trusted Christ - God will be faithful and keep it for me - I have no power to lose it or cast it away. No, because He said he would keep you blameless.

BTW, Didn't Paul characterize himself as having to die daily in the struggle with his sin, and the chief of sinners? He must not be saved, and the writer of most of our New Testament (14 books) must not have the word in him. If Paul was an adultery then we all are wasting our time.


BTW2, If Suicide is a sin unable to be repented of, wouldn't that make Jesus' death a suicide? He chose to die for us before the world began (Titus 1:2), "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and he gave up the ghost"

I find it hard to compare a "gift of life" to suicide. But you have me mixed up with someone else, I feel the mind is an organ of the body and can deteriorate as the other organs can.

Thank you for your answers and please ask me anything you want.

 

[tinytim]

Tim,

wow what an idea that is! That makes lots of sense to me... it really does.

"If we quit being God's child, then He would have no right to discipline us.."

Let me explain this a little... Maybe J.Jump will then understand what I mean.

I have heard that if a person sins, they lose their salvation... I disagree with this because I didn't quit sinning to gain my salvation.... I trusted Christ as my savior....

But IF a person lost his salvation because he sinned that means that God would not be his father...

We are either the child of God or child of Satan..
If we could lose our salvation that means that since God would not be our father, we would be a child of Satan....

Now...
As a child, who has the right to discipline you? Answer: Your parents, or anyone your parents gives that autority to.

As a child of God, God has the right to chastise me.
But if I am a child of Satan, what right does God have to chastise me... He wouldn't be my father...Satan would be.

But it says in Hebrews that He chastises His children.
If they sin, and they lose their salvation, he would not have to chastise them... they would no longer be His children.

I hope this makes sense.. I am having trouble today making sense of myself... :BangHead: