Featured Spiritual life

If spiritual separation from God is synonomous with spritual death, then does not that demand that spiritual life is spiritual union with God?

If that is the case, then how can anyone who is not spiritually dead be without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit without being spiritually separated from God? Does not "union" demand indwelling? If not, then how does such a "union" exist?

Secondly, if spiritual separation is spiritual death would not that demand all who are not in spiritual union with God be without spiritual life?

Thirdly, is there any kind of salvaiton OUTSIDE of Christ? If not, then does not "in Christ" demand spiritual union with Christ? How can one be in spiritual union with Christ but without the indwelling Spirit of Chirst? If so, then how does this spiritual union exist?

Prior to Pentecost Jesus claimed that certain ones had for their spiritual father the Devil - Jn. 8:44-45. Prior to Pentecost Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born again" or else he was merely "born of the flesh" rather than born from God. Do those born of the flesh prior to Pentecost belong to Satan or God? If belong to God at birth then why should Jesus tell an old Man he needs to be born of God. If they belong to God then how come Jesus told certain ones they had Satan as their "father."?

Do people prior to Pentecost have a different problem then those after Pentecost? Do only people after pentecost need to be born of the Spirit while people prior to Pentecost do not need to be born of the Spirit? Can you belong to God rather than Satan without being born of the Spirit? Why then does anyone need to be born of the Spirit if none before Pentecost need to be born of the Spirit?

What spiritual necessity requires to be born of the Spirit if there was no such spiritual necessity prior to Pentecost? What does regeneration obtain for anyone before or after Pentecost that is spiritually necessary to their salvation if it is non-essential to salvation prior to Pentecost?

I am asking these questions and drawing these conclusions especially in regard to those listed in Hebrews 11 who walked "by faith."

 

You are avoiding my specific questions and giving answers totally dependent upon a dispensational interpretation of texts that is not necessarily demanded by the texts you refer to.

Please address my questions and conclusion one by one with specific answers rather than giving generalizations due to a dispensational mindset.

 

Again, you are avoding my questions and trying to answer by asking questions. Please take them one by one and give specific answers.

Even in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is given in different senses then indwelling but specializing and equipping men for leadership functions.

 

Let me repeat the OP and ask for specific answers to each specific question and conclusion.

 

Well, get your rest! My son and his family just came back from a three day camping trip and they looked like they were sleeping with their eyes open - dead tired.

 

He most certainly did not answer even one question presented and neither do you. Like him you simply jump to pure assumptions based upon a set of very narrow interpretations.

If the view both of you espouse is true then attempt to answer my questions one by one. You can't and you know you can't and that is why you jump right into a very common view that is based upon inferences and assumptions that simply are not true.

In every single case where the Holy Spirit came "upon" someone and then left them it is ALWAYS in regard to special power or wisdom or equipping for an office or removing annointing because of sin.

Does He do that from Pentecost forward? Yes, He most certainly does.

 

Just because I disagreed with you is no reason to get personal and attack my person. It may turn out that you are the one who is really ignorant here and not I.

Yes! However, your theoloical construct interprets them as special cases and thus invalidates these clearly stated examples scattered throughout the Old Testament.

 

I appreciate you at least attempting to answer my questions one by one. That is a sure good start.

Your answer produces more problems then it answers.

1. Is there salvation for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE of Christ?

2. Are those "chosen in him" before the foundation of the world restricted to Post-Pentecost saved - Eph. 1:4? Hence, God has TWO different plans of salvation prior to the world???

3. Are you saying there was no spiritual "unity" between any human being and God from Genesis to acts 2:1?

4. If your position were true then non-placement into Christ would be the cause of being "alienated from the life of God" in Ephesians 4:18 but that is not the reason Paul gives there.

5. Is your "unity" equal to "union" or something else? If it is equal then does not that demand by your interpretation that there were no human beings from Genesis to Acts 2 who were in "unity" with God? What is the opposite of "unity"?????

6. How could they "walk" with God and yet not "walk IN the Spirit"? Is there a third type of human being? One who is not "in the flesh" but not "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9) and yet God can claim them as His?

I have to leave for town but will be back to finish this.

 

This is pure assumption based upon a theological construct. You are making a circular argument. You base you conclusion on the very thing you must first yet prove to be true. You have not proved it to be true.

First, how can "indwelling" be mere "evidence....of that union" without being essential to that union? If this is a "spiritual" union it must be some kind of union between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God or it is no "union" at all!

Are you speaking of the "new" covenant as a visible administration (Heb. 9:1) consisting of a PUBLIC house of God, PUBLIC qualfied ministry, PUBLIC qualified ordinances OR are you speaking of "the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" (Heb. 13:20) which is immediate and direct application by God to all the elect in all ages of those things merely declared in the public administration? Do you make a distinction between the "old" and "new" covenants as PUBLIC ADMINISTRATIONS versus the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" which is administered directly by God to his elect???

We are not speaking about "peace" with God but "spiritural" union with God. The Atonement does not bring "peace" between God and man experientially except through justification (Rom. 5:1-2) and we are not speaking of justification but regeneration which is the only aspect of salvation in time and space where any kind of "spiritual" union is accomplished. The atonement as an ACT was performed by Christ in his ministry on earth. The atonement APPLIED is in regard to justification by faith NOT REGENERATION. Regeneration is something man cannot participate in its accomplishment (Jn. 1:13) but the act of the Spirit of God where by man is passive. Man is active in justification by faith but passive in regeneration as it is a CREATIVE work by God within that brings life out of death.

The atonment does not bring us into "spiritual" unity with God! The atonement brings us into LEGAL unity with God as it satisfies the LEGAL demands of the Law against us (Rom. 3:24-26) which are applied to us personally in time and space through justification by faith (Rom. 5:1-2) thus attaining peace between God and the believer. This is not "spiritual" unity but legal unity. You are confusing the two and they should not be confused.

The atonement deals with the LEGAL issues of sin not the actual condition of sin in the believer as that is dealt with by regeneration and progressive sanctification by the Spirit.

Here is your real problem! You have to take the position that all men living prior to Pentecost were not only spiritually dead but could not obtain eternal life as that is obtained only through spiritual union with God - the opposite of spiritual death! Your position denies the possibiltiy of "union" between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God and thus denies the possibility of spiritual life. "Union" by its very nature demands it is an internal CONTINUOUS spiritual state or there is no SPIRITUAL "union" at all.

This is another huge problem to your position. You define "in Christ" to be "in the Spirit" which Paul demands that means INDWELLING by the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Hence, according to your position, if consistent, you must deny none could be saved previous to Pentecost as none could be "in Christ" since there is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ. Your position collapses on itself.

Your view on the order of regeneration versus conversion is not the subject of this OP nor does it matter in this discussion.

Abraham preceded Israel and the Mosaic law and is given to us as "the father" of ALL WHO BELIEVE and we have a whole list of them in Hebrews 11 who lived BEFORE Israel or Moses. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and Christ is the author of faith (heb. 12:1-2). We have the explicit statement in Hebrews 4:2 that only those who fell under judgment in the wilderness did not believe as the word was not mixed with faith in them - meaning it was mixed in faith with those who did not fall - hence all Israel is not of Israel at any period in time - only twice born Jews are "of Israel."

Moreover, before Pentecost Nicodemus was told that He must be born of the Spirit and rebuked for not knowing this as a teacher of the OLD testament scriptures (Jn. 3:3,11). This totally goes against your position as the theological construct usually denies the new birth by the Spirit occured previous to Pentecost.

First, provide Biblical evidence in Genesis to Malichi that the new birth by the Spirit occurred? Yes, I believe it did, but provide the scriptures to prove it? You will find just a few, very few. Hence, the scarcity of Old Testament scriptures does not deny it was a fact, otherwise there is no rational ground for Jesus to rebuke Nicodemus concerning the necessity of new birth by the Spirit.

It is impossible for regeneration to occur within the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) of man without "union" to also occur as it is within the human spirit that regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs, thus union is the essential byproduct of regenertion. Regeneration includes more than mere union of the human "spirit" and the Divine Spirit but it is impossible without spiritual union as it is "union" between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit that IS SPIRITUAL LIFE within.

But we are not talking about the LEGAL GROUNDS for regeneration and justification as the atonement occurred on the cross not during your life. Spiritual union and indwelling occur in your lifespan and is the work of the Spirit while the atonement is the work of the Son - You are confusing these and they should not be confused. The atonement has NOTHING to do EXPERIENTIALLY with regeneration. It is the LEGAL BASIS for justification and thus the basis for "peace" between God and the believer (Rom. 5:1) but it has nothing to do with "spiritual" union only "LEGAL" union.

Again you are confusing the LEGAL BASIS for regeneration with the ACT of regeneration which is completely spiritual in character.

We are not speaking about the LEGAL BASIS for salvation but the SPIRITUAL ACT of salvation or the work of the Spirit WITHIN the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6).

 

Let me state this in its simplest manner. There is no spiritual life in the human spirit except by "union" with the Spirit of God WITHIN man. That "union" must be CONTINUOUS by nature or it is not in "union" but disconnected/separated which by definition is spiritual death. That very continuous union IS the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God or else there is no "spiritual" union existent at all between the human spirit and God.

This is precisely why Paul provides only two possible classfications of human beings existent - those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" as there is no possible third option - Rom. 8:8-9.