Sproul's Semi-Pelagian Rant

[TCGreek]

WOW, TC! That's great!

Would you agree that this is both "conversion" and "efficacious calling?"

skypair

If by "efficacious calling you mean that internal work of the Spirit to bring us to conversion through the gospel and that faith and repentance are evidence of that call/regeneration, then yes.

Some who hold to the Reformed position differ at times on the ordo salutis, order of salvation; so keep that in mind.

 

[J.D.]

Yes --- I believe they are interchangeable and I like your next comment on this ~

Yes --- When your soul is converted, your mind/heart acknowledges it ---- KNOWS it.

The point that the WC makes about more than just persuasion, to me, speaks of the need not to just be persuaded but for the will to act on that persuasion. Many people believe but most "believe in vain" because there is no redirection of personal will. That is the whole point that "EFFICACIOUS will" tries to make -- that there is a persuasion and a commitment.

Good comments, J.D. :godisgood:
skypair

Thanks for the compliment, but I think you're mixing apples and oranges here. Are you equating "efficacious calling" with "efficacious will"?

Efficacious calling is a reformed doctrine, is it not? I don't think the concept has a proper application in the free will system. The doctrine of efficacious calling focuses the effectiveness of the Gospel on God's power in converting the soul. Efficacious will, on the other hand, if it may be said that such a doctrine exists, fits into the free will system, since it focuses the effectiveness of the Gospel on man's will.

 

[J.D.]

Anyone who is well schooled in Reformed theology knows that faith is composed of three parts, which are inseparable:

1. Notitia (facts on which to base faith, Rom.10:17; data about Christ is this case);

2. Assensus (assent to the facts of Notitia; but this is where the demons stop, Jas 2:19);

3. Fiducia (this is the heart stuff; this is where you trust, having behold the sweetness of Christ through notitia and assenting to what notitia reveal about Christ, you then trust and commit).

There is no saving, biblical faith with the right facts, assenting to those about Christ, and then trusting him, with the head and heart.

Thank you, this is very helpful.

 

[skypair]

Efficacious calling is a reformed doctrine, is it not? I don't think the concept has a proper application in the free will system. The doctrine of efficacious calling focuses the effectiveness of the Gospel on God's power in converting the soul.

I know you can "spout" the Reform dogma. But HOW does it work? Is there ANY thinking/reasoning* involved on man's part? Does man have to then believe the gospel?? THAT is where we may discover we are more in agreement than our respective sotierologies admit.

So HOW is the gospel effective in converting the soul? Or is it all just 'smoke and mirrors?'

Efficacious will, on the other hand, if it may be said that such a doctrine exists, fits into the free will system, since it focuses the effectiveness of the Gospel on man's will.

Wouldn't you have to admit that the gospel is an effective means of God drawing people to Christ AND of turning or converting man's will, too?? What you appear to be saying is that it can't be both.

skypair

*"Come let US reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet; they SHALL BE [after WE reason] white as snow."

 

[TCGreek]

Wouldn't you have to admit that the gospel is an effective means of God drawing people to Christ AND of turning or converting man's will, too?? What you appear to be saying is that it can't be both.

skypair

*"Come let US reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet; they SHALL BE [after WE reason] white as snow."

There is what we call the universal call of the gospel and then there is the efficacious call of the gospel.

No one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. That seems to be the plain, simple teaching of John in these passages:John 6:35-40, 61-65).

The will of man is held bondage by sin until God frees him by the work of the Spirit.
He has "freedom" but only a freedom to choose sin and not God (Rom 3:10-12;8:7, 8).

 

[skypair]

There is what we call the universal call of the gospel and then there is the efficacious call of the gospel.

No one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. That seems to be the plain, simple teaching of John in these passages:John 6:35-40, 61-65).

The will of man is held bondage by sin until God frees him by the work of the Spirit.
He has "freedom" but only a freedom to choose sin and not God (Rom 3:10-12;8:7, 8).

I think I understand the theory of "efficacious calling," TC. It is the particulars that I am after. But on a practical level, what is the "freeing work of the Spirit?" What does the gospel have to do with the "freeing work?" What is man's or the elect's involvement in it, if any? What remains to be done after one is free from bondage of the will? "Reverse engineer" it for me. Break it down into its component parts.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I think I understand the theory of "efficacious calling," TC. It is the particulars that I am after. But on a practical level, what is the "freeing work of the Spirit?" What does the gospel have to do with the "freeing work?" What is man's or the elect's involvement in it, if any? What remains to be done after one is free from bondage of the will? "Reverse engineer" it for me. Break it down into its component parts.

skypair

There are two important components at this point that I think are helpful: 1. Monoergism 2. Synergism.

Monoergistically, when the gospel is preached, the Spirit moves and brings regeneration and conviction. As a sinner I am convicted of my sins and see my need for the Savior.

What must I do becomes the necessary question? the faith and repentance that I now exercise are evidence of my regeneration and are gifts given to me that I must now exercise.

The exercising of these gifts is my part, synergistically speaking. But I must never forget that they too are gifts of God. That is why it is synergistic: God gives the gifts and I use them. I hope this answers your question.

 

[skypair]

There are two important components at this point that I think are helpful: 1. Monoergism 2. Synergism.

Monoergistically, when the gospel is preached, the Spirit moves and brings regeneration and conviction. As a sinner I am convicted of my sins and see my need for the Savior.

OK. I think most Calvinists claim that God works monergistically THROUGHTOUT the process of drawing one to salvation. I like this better.

What I believe you are actually saying that there is a knowledge of sin on your part and also the knowledge of need of a Savior. It is clear that this knowledge could take you either direction -- belief or unbelief -- right?

What must I do becomes the necessary question? the faith and repentance that I now exercise are evidence of my regeneration and are gifts given to me that I must now exercise.

Good ----- EXCEPT all you have is KNOWLEDGE so far. Knowledge alone doesn't regenerate. I think you would agree, right? Even the "non-elect" have knowledge if they heard what you heard.

The critical link that I see connecting KNOWLEDGE to FAITH and REGENERATION is RECEIVING that knowledge rather than refusing it. Here's where the "what must I do?" comes in. Repentance is evidence of my receiving the knowledge of the truth/gospel and for my repentance I am regenerated and receive the spiritual gift (1Cor 12,:9) as you say, of faith.

***But let's say you believe that the "conviction" of sin and need of a Savior is your conversion -- is the Holy Spirit coming into you in the indwelling power of regeneration. Perhaps you are saying that. That's more logical than any Calvinist's explanation I've heard so far. BUT John tells us that the Holy Spirit "will convict the WORLD of sin, or righteousness and of judgment." Everyone is convicted -- or at the very least many more than believe on Christ, wouldn't you agree??

So no -- the conviction itself is not regeneration. It merely puts the knowledge in your hands that enables you to repent and then receive regeneration and faith.

I hope you don't mind if I try to bring this post before a braoder audience by posting it as a new thread. So far you are the only one who has explained to me in a cogent manner what is inside the "dogma box" of Calvinism's sotierology. Thanks! :wavey:

skypair

 

[IveyLeaguer]

To skypair:

I would still like to know if R.C.Sproul actually says in his book that if you can understand the preacher you are saved, or was that a paraphrase?

:godisgood:

 

[skypair]

To skypair:


Quote:
Originally Posted by IveyLeaguer
I would still like to know if R.C.Sproul actually says in his book that if you can understand the preacher you are saved, or was that a paraphrase?

Ivey, those were my words regarding what I see Calvinists as believing. They believe that they comprehend the Bible with spiritual eyes even before they are regenerate (according to the Biblical understanding of regenerate/reboirth). This gives them "license" to dispense with giving their lives to God in repentance and trust. What they trust in is their "election" which is NOT salvation any more than being chosen to be a Blue Angels pilot is salvation. Repentance is a continual turning from sin rather than a turning of one's whole life in the manner as free willers saying a sinner's prayer.

"Election" is God's purpose for the believer. If you first are not a believer, God has no purpose for you. And you are not a believer if you haven't repented and received Christ as scripture commands.

A more realistic view of what Calvinism teaches is that we are progressively saved -- giving more of our lives to Christ every day. Have you heard that? I have a couple of times from preachers. They don't realize that they are talking about being progressively SANCTIFIED. But no one can be sanctified until they are first justified by repentance and reception of Christ unto regeneration.

Basically, Calvinists skirt the issue of a "sinner's prayer" as a work believing that salvation is "monergistic" and "unconditional." To God, that is like sitting at the banquet table without having RSVP'ed first. or without a wedding garment.

skypair