Still waiting on a answer....

It appears to me that you are either willfully ignorant or want to argue your private interpretation, James.

The simple answer is Rom 1 -- "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:..."

Is that not the "light" you are looking for? That no body can maintain he does NOT see? Yes, the "gospel" truth is known to all men.

skypair

 

1) All men will be saved?
2) All men know and understand the gospel?
3) All men and given a chance hear the gospel?
4) God is the one that gives life to all men?
5) other..



Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Jhn 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Hbr 8:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Tts 2:11¶For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

Just curious. By what means? Through their conscience? Through the evidence of creation?

I agree that observing creation can lead to the suggestion of a creator. But how does it lead to a knowledge of the gospel?

If the Romans 1 passages mean what you say they mean, then let's bring home all the missionaries, for we have no need for them, because everybody already has the gospel.

If the gospel truth is known to all men, then we really don't need preachers and sermons and personal witnessing any more.

Yes, I know Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel. Yes, I know Paul said in his first letter to the church at Corinth that it pleased God to save through the foolishness of preaching. So.......uh.......well, I guess that makes my point.

 

I think it is very clear - ALL mankind (inclusively and without exception) has a "God awareness" (light that lighteth every man) or a God consciousness. Sin has perverted how man "worships" the "God awearness". This is witnessed throughout all of history when every people group in history worshiped "a diety or dieties" in different (pagen) ways. Sin has perverted the TRUE worship, but this doesn't negate the fact that all men have a "light" of God. Only by the Holy Spirit can we worhsipin in spirit and in truth.

Man perverts, God CONVERTS

 

JN 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Some enlightenment.

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

john.

 

Romans 10:
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Colossians 1:4-6 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Have they not heard?


Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Acts 26:20-26 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.


Anyone explain this one?

 

I will deal again with the John 1:1-13 again today as time permits. I have read again the thoughts of the post on this thread and it looks like everyone is sticking to the Bible. That is refreshing.

Let me offered a suggestion:

In that the consideration at this point is John 1:1-13 why not just let that text speak for itself.

Once we have allowed it to speak for itself meaning all of us have exhausted our understanding based on what the text actually says based on grammar and normal literal genre.

We all know that this text is not the some total of text on the topic "salvation".

Let say you had 10 sections of scripture NT that address the topic of Salvation and we simply let the grammar and genre of the text answer the information and keep outside and other relative and non-relative material from it. Once we have done so then compare and contrast and synthesize.

I think that would be a more fruitful path.

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

Everyone have a blessed day. Don't forget your devotions, meditate upon the Lord, read prayerfully and commit our life’s this day holy unto the Lord to live in purity attitude, motive, and action.

One last though: Perhaps each of us could pick out a section of Scripture that deals with Salvation and as we finish one section “letting it speak for itself” move to the next.

 

Now this is an interesting verse, isn't it?

 

It is interesting in the fact you can see through a veil.

 

Good point webdog. It is a fact that it says that it is veiled to those who are perishing however. Why, if you can see through the veil, is it veiled to only those who are perishing?

The answer I believe is, that though they can see a little light, they do not have enough to come to faith.

Of course you know that is what I'd believe huh? :laugh:

 

So is the next one...

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

A very interesting story behind it as well npetreley.

2CO 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

I think that says the Israelites minds were made dull and the same is true today, when Paul wrote. Only in Christ can one understand God's word. Only in Christ is it removed, not before. It is removed in Christ by Christ. By grace that would be. Unless a man is born again he cannot see.

1 Cor 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

JN 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Because God did not open their eyes and ears and hearts.

Rom 10:18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Of course they heard But their minds were made dull... They had forty years of continuous miracles as well but their ...eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:2-4.

Moses could see through it webdog but who said the veil was over the Israelite's eyes? LA 3:65 Put a veil over their hearts, and may your curse be on them!

john

 

Of course that is what I would have thought you would say

"veiled to those who are perishing" is not saying "they are perishing because they cannot see through the veil"...what you imply. In the same sense of "blinding" and "hardening", I believe "veiling" happens due to the condition of man's heart...what they do with truth, as it is useless to veil something from a "corpse". I can see different layers of veiling taking place. There is truth presented and rejected. The Gospel becomes a little more veiled. More truth is presented and rejected...pull down the next veil, etc. etc.

 

Certainly not that verse!

Why put a veil over a corpses heart or eyes?

 

By the way, how many verses do Calvinists find 'interesting'?

Romans 9:13-9:23, a couple verses in John 6 and 8, a few of the verses in the Psalms, a couple snippets from Ephesians.

There are over 31,000 verses in the Bible, how many support your theology? 25, 50, 75, 100, 200? I suspect you will say "31,000". I would ask, then why do we only hear (over and over again) the same few verses?

 

I think you're focusing on the wrong meaning here. Yes, it can mean partially obscured, but that's not what is implied by the context. It seems more to me to fit these definitions:

veiled

1 a: having or wearing a veil or a concealing cover <a veiled hat>
b: characterized by a softening tonal distortion
2: obscured as if by a veil

obscure

1 : to make dark, dim, or indistinct
2 : to conceal or hide by or as if by covering
3 : to reduce (a vowel) to the value

 

Very interesting Blammo.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid...

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So if our gospel be hid it be also guarded by one with a point and a mark to make if any approach the tree of life alone.

john.