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Strange Fire Conference
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
It's sort of a last gasp from MacArthur, kind of parallels 33.A.D. Pharisees losing membership and money to Jesus, Religion losing membership and money to charismatics. Pharisees always used scripture to ridicule and criticize.
We've had multiple posts about the conference. I'll leave most of my comments to what I said in those posts.
Suffice to say, I found the conference to be an unnecessary and ill conceived approach to a topic that isn't a foundational issue of the faith. MacArthur has yet to adequately engage those who have legitimate questions about his theology and statements on the miraculous gifts.
I've watched much of the videos.
Suffice to say, I found the conference to be an unnecessary and ill conceived approach to a topic that isn't a foundational issue of the faith. MacArthur has yet to adequately engage those who have legitimate questions about his theology and statements on the miraculous gifts.
I've watched much of the videos.
I have listened to most of it.
But have you read his book????? Can you make non emotional objects that cite what it is you do not agree with?
plain_n_simple
Active Member
I will read it, but it comes down to a verse. The definition of "that which is perfect is come". MacArthur will say it is the bible, therefore no need of miracles and healing. But demon possession and sickness are still here. God will not take away our weapons of warfare when we are still at war.
Well I have neither the time nor the desire to read Dr MacArthur's book on this since I've already watched most of the conference and listen to his podcasts enough to have heard his points. (His books are just his sermons with some minor editing.)
I don't really understand your second question. There are serious theological objections to Dr MacArthur's positions. Particularly his version of cessationism which is flawed in its biblical approach. There are legitimate evidences of miraculous gifts within the world today. In our ministry network, we just heard from one of our partners who was preaching in a foreign country where a legitimate exercise of the gift of tongues was seen by him and two others.
I can go on, but I have no emotional arguments for the exercise of miraculous gifts so I'm not sure how your point applies. Perhaps some clarification will help.
preacher4truth
Active Member
His (pij) truth is subjective to his experiences. That's his platform -- subjectivity. Why? Because it is impossible to disprove, thus he uses it and he wants to fight you on those grounds.
The conference was very good and very sound in Biblical truth. In other words it was objective.
He (pij) has nothing to cite and it is apparent his decisions are bathed in his bias. He has no time to read, he only has time to dismiss, nor can or will he prove his accusations of 'serious theological objections' because, yet again, subjective drive by accusations are his only source.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I've watched all the videos and found them to be excellent.
Actually not all his books are just his sermons with minor editing. This book in fact he wrote by hand so what you have said is false. Tongues and miracles? I once was in a Charismatic church and everyone in the small group spoke in "tongues" or what they thought was tongues but me. I walked in for the first time and felt like I was a oddball, out of place, and not having the spirits power. Yes this is how they made me think, but I was young in the faith then. Personally I see no evidence that tongues and miracles exist today and if you have any I want hard evidence and not just your word. Please supply NON EDITED VIDEOS. Non edited means it most likely will not be on YouTube, and will be raw video. Yes I want a Mini DV Tape, a VHS Tape, or a DVD of live and raw footage. I once asked a Charismatic church to provide hard proof and they never replied because they do not have any.
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His (pij) truth is subjective to his experiences. That's his platform -- subjectivity. Why? Because it is impossible to disprove, thus he uses it and he wants to fight you on those grounds.
The conference was very good and very sound in Biblical truth. In other words it was objective.
He (pij) has nothing to cite and it is apparent his decisions are bathed in his bias. He has no time to read, he only has time to dismiss, nor can or will he prove his accusations of 'serious theological objections' because, yet again, subjective drive by accusations are his only source.
Well said. Reminds me of the KJVO crowd whom think the same. No time to read Dr. Whites master piece, but only time to dismiss. Well that is another topic. But yes the same logical fallacies are applied with the Charismatic crowd.
Honestly, Dr MacArthur's approach to authorship isn't a concern of mine. Of the few texts I've read they've corresponded to sermons he's given. Moving along...
evangelist6589 said:
Okay, well you're a fan of books so go and get Craig Keener's two volume work on miracles called...well..Miracles. Keener is one of the foremost evangelical biblical scholars today and has distinguished himself as a world class exegete. His work details many miracles in the current age.
As for video, seriously man this is an informal BB. I'm not going to post a video or dig up research for this thing beyond five minutes of time. If you're serious about your request you can find plenty of folks who probably will provide you this stuff.
I'm not a charismatic or pentecostal, but I won't sit around and listen to bad theology be pushed against their viewpoint. This conference is bad theology and bad ministry. It lacked any engagement with actual charismatic theology and caricatured the real issues. I've said my peace about this before elsewhere.
Actually I'd say my theology drives my understanding of experiences that I've had and others' reports.
When we look at the NT manifestation of the miraculous gifts, there is no evidence that there is a ending of the gifts. As I've said before, I'm no charismatic or pentecostal. I've never spoken in tongues. I don't have a private prayer language.
However, when we place constrictions against God's work in the world we take our so-called objectivity and make it entirely subjective. As the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 it continued through the NT period. As Paul lays out the appropriate expression of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 begins with "pursue the spiritual gifts" particularly with the ability to prophesy (14:1.) Yet this comes after Paul, supposedly, states that tongues (or languages) comes to an end (13:8.) I believe it is a misinterpretation of the 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to understand this as an event prior to the eschton. Paul's language is eschatological, as well as his point. Nevertheless, there seems to be adequate NT data to support a proper view of the charisma gifts in the NT era and beyond. I'm no charismatic, but I'm not about to say, "God can't do this" or "God can't do that."
preacher4truth said:He (pij) has nothing to cite and it is apparent his decisions are bathed in his bias. He has no time to read, he only has time to dismiss, nor can or will he prove his accusations of 'serious theological objections' because, yet again, subjective drive by accusations are his only source.
First of all, just call me PJ; makes things easier. Secondly, I have plenty of time to read substantive theology that is worth my time. MacArthur's text isn't worth my time. I listen to his podcast and have viewed enough of the conference to get the book. There are better and more important texts for me to read than this book.
Also, my objections aren't subjective, but rather based appropriately in the objective truth of Scripture. Dr MacArthur and his group falsely portrayed charismatic and pentecostal theologies in his conference to bolster their point. He refuses to engage in dialogue with educated and credentialed charismatic theologians. He also speaks down to these groups without appropriately understanding them and their leaders.
While there are certainly terrible excesses in these groups, mischaracterizing them and giving a poorly framed theology of cessation to support your own claim is just as bad. I appreciate Dr MacArthur's ministry but have little time for theological thugs who wish to drag others down to make their points.
Please check me above points if you want an actual conversation and not just a flame war. Have a good evening.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Actually I'd say my theology drives my understanding of experiences that I've had and others' reports.
When we look at the NT manifestation of the miraculous gifts, there is no evidence that there is a ending of the gifts. As I've said before, I'm no charismatic or pentecostal. I've never spoken in tongues. I don't have a private prayer language.
However, when we place constrictions against God's work in the world we take our so-called objectivity and make it entirely subjective. As the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 it continued through the NT period. As Paul lays out the appropriate expression of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 begins with "pursue the spiritual gifts" particularly with the ability to prophesy (14:1.) Yet this comes after Paul, supposedly, states that tongues (or languages) comes to an end (13:8.) I believe it is a misinterpretation of the 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to understand this as an event prior to the eschton. Paul's language is eschatological, as well as his point. Nevertheless, there seems to be adequate NT data to support a proper view of the charisma gifts in the NT era and beyond. I'm no charismatic, but I'm not about to say, "God can't do this" or "God can't do that."
First of all, just call me PJ; makes things easier. Secondly, I have plenty of time to read substantive theology that is worth my time. MacArthur's text isn't worth my time. I listen to his podcast and have viewed enough of the conference to get the book. There are better and more important texts for me to read than this book.
Also, my objections aren't subjective, but rather based appropriately in the objective truth of Scripture. Dr MacArthur and his group falsely portrayed charismatic and pentecostal theologies in his conference to bolster their point. He refuses to engage in dialogue with educated and credentialed charismatic theologians. He also speaks down to these groups without appropriately understanding them and their leaders.
While there are certainly terrible excesses in these groups, mischaracterizing them and giving a poorly framed theology of cessation to support your own claim is just as bad. I appreciate Dr MacArthur's ministry but have little time for theological thugs who wish to drag others down to make their points.
Please check me above points if you want an actual conversation and not just a flame war. Have a good evening.
Thanks for your "classiness" (I only wished I could respond with such.)
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Actually I'd say my theology drives my understanding of experiences that I've had and others' reports.
When we look at the NT manifestation of the miraculous gifts, there is no evidence that there is a ending of the gifts. As I've said before, I'm no charismatic or pentecostal. I've never spoken in tongues. I don't have a private prayer language.
However, when we place constrictions against God's work in the world we take our so-called objectivity and make it entirely subjective. As the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 it continued through the NT period. As Paul lays out the appropriate expression of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 begins with "pursue the spiritual gifts" particularly with the ability to prophesy (14:1.) Yet this comes after Paul, supposedly, states that tongues (or languages) comes to an end (13:8.) I believe it is a misinterpretation of the 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to understand this as an event prior to the eschton. Paul's language is eschatological, as well as his point. Nevertheless, there seems to be adequate NT data to support a proper view of the charisma gifts in the NT era and beyond. I'm no charismatic, but I'm not about to say, "God can't do this" or "God can't do that."
First of all, just call me PJ; makes things easier. Secondly, I have plenty of time to read substantive theology that is worth my time. MacArthur's text isn't worth my time. I listen to his podcast and have viewed enough of the conference to get the book. There are better and more important texts for me to read than this book.
Also, my objections aren't subjective, but rather based appropriately in the objective truth of Scripture. Dr MacArthur and his group falsely portrayed charismatic and pentecostal theologies in his conference to bolster their point. He refuses to engage in dialogue with educated and credentialed charismatic theologians. He also speaks down to these groups without appropriately understanding them and their leaders.
While there are certainly terrible excesses in these groups, mischaracterizing them and giving a poorly framed theology of cessation to support your own claim is just as bad. I appreciate Dr MacArthur's ministry but have little time for theological thugs who wish to drag others down to make their points.
Please check me above points if you want an actual conversation and not just a flame war. Have a good evening.
All this and without having read the book? I STRONGLY suggest you make your objections accurately after you have read the Strange Fire book. I am sure Grace to You will mail you a FREE copy if you contact them. No Mac did not preach this book, he wrote it.
Does Andy Stanley support miracles and healings and tongues? The last I looked he does not as he is not a Charismatic Church. Therefore the people Mac exposes in his book and at the conference are at an entirely new level of false teachings than the mere seeker friendly and self-help based tactics of Andy Stanley.
Also if you read Charles Stanley's book on the Holy Spirit (which bye the way he wrote and did not preach) you would see that he also does not agree with the Charismatic movement.