Talking to the DEAD

[BobRyan]

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

Fortunately the protestant Christians can join the Hebrew people of God in saying this practice of consulting the dead (no matter WHICH dead it is) -- should stop.


Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.



In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point being -- those who equivocate between the witch of endor in 1Sam 28 and Christ in Matt 17 claiming that they are BOTH doing the same thing - open a huge door to spiritism paganism and the ancient practices related to those pagan gods.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

The point being -- those who equivocate between the witch of endor in 1Sam 28 and Christ in Matt 17 claiming that they are BOTH doing the same thing - open a huge door to spiritism paganism and the ancient practices related to those pagan gods.

OK, maybe I missed it, but who is saying that?

 

[BobRyan]

I would prefer to say that nobody would dare equivocate between 1 Sam 28 and Matt 17.

I would enjoy having to say that "Nobody would dare say that either of these examples is an illustration of actual dead people communicating with the living".

My preference is that ALL on this board (both Catholic and non-Catholic) would argue that the witch of endoe had NO power over the dead prophet Samuel and had NO ability AT ALL to conjure up an actual dead person much less a dead saint such as Samuel. That this was instead merely a deception of Satan as one of HIS followers deceptively CLAIMED to have the ability to "call up Samuel". Whereas in REAL fact - God gives the wicked NO such power at ALL and when God forbids this practice it is on the same basis as the prohibition against worshipping false gods.

False gods do not exist - except as demons put on the false cloak of a false god.

spirits of the dead also do not exist except as demons put on the false cloak of departed loved ones and in that sharade pretend to be open for "communion with the living". Indeed the only reason to "consult the dead" is the false assumption that the dead are hanging around and "contactable".

Christ in Matthew 17 addresses Elijah (who did not die) and Moses (who did die but who is the subject of the book "The Assumption of Moses" which is quoted in Jude 7). Thus Christ is also NOT giving us an example of "conjuring up the dead" rather we have a saint bodily resurrected and we also have a living saint who was taken to heaven without ever dying.

And the witch of Endor did not claim to call out living saints (as in the case of Elijah) nor to bodily resurrect dead saints.

The point is that while some here may differ with my view on the soul - they should not be going to such extremes as equivocating between Matt 17 and 1Sam28 to make their case - because if they go to such an extreme - they open the SAME door of equivocation between Matt 17 and 1Sam 28 that RC posters have suggested on this very board for justifying prayers to the dead using a "spiritism" based definition for "communion of the saints" to mean "consulting dead saints and ancestors".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I would prefer to say that nobody would dare equivocate between 1 Sam 28 and Matt 17.

I would enjoy having to say that "Nobody would dare say that either of these examples is an illustration of actual dead people communicating with the living".

My preference is that ALL on this board (both Catholic and non-Catholic) would argue that the witch of endoe had NO power over the dead prophet Samuel and had NO ability AT ALL to conjure up an actual dead person much less a dead saint such as Samuel. That this was instead merely a deception of Satan as one of HIS followers deceptively CLAIMED to have the ability to "call up Samuel". Whereas in REAL fact - God gives the wicked NO such power at ALL and when God forbids this practice it is on the same basis as the prohibition against worshipping false gods.

False gods do not exist - except as demons put on the false cloak of a false god.

spirits of the dead also do not exist except as demons put on the false cloak of departed loved ones and in that sharade pretend to be open for "communion with the living". Indeed the only reason to "consult the dead" is the false assumption that the dead are hanging around and "contactable".

Christ in Matthew 17 addresses Elijah (who did not die) and Moses (who did die but who is the subject of the book "The Assumption of Moses" which is quoted in Jude 7). Thus Christ is also NOT giving us an example of "conjuring up the dead" rather we have a saint bodily resurrected and we also have a living saint who was taken to heaven without ever dying.

And the witch of Endor did not claim to call out living saints (as in the case of Elijah) nor to bodily resurrect dead saints.

The point is that while some here may differ with my view on the soul - they should not be going to such extremes as equivocating between Matt 17 and 1Sam28 to make their case - because if they go to such an extreme - they open the SAME door of equivocation between Matt 17 and 1Sam 28 that RC posters have suggested on this very board for justifying prayers to the dead using a "spiritism" based definition for "communion of the saints" to mean "consulting dead saints and ancestors".

In Christ,

Bob

I believe that false gods don't exist, but the devil put such ideas into human hearts.

As for Matt 17, I don't see much need to explain about it as the story is related to Elijah and Moses, and even that was done by the Lord.

As for 1 Sam 28, I think we need to analyze a little further.

1) Saul was completely deserted by God at that time.
This is very important situation.
If RCC claims any prayer to the Dead, then it may be because they are completely deserted by God.
Otherwise, why cannot they ask God directly for everything? Do they fear God so much that they cannot pray to God directly? Why? May be because they are not forgiven their sins yet?

2) Saul asked the woman to conjure Divine by familiar spirit ( v 8)
This indicates that Salul started to use divination, sorcery.
In other words, Talking to the Dead is available in the world of Sorcery, Divination, and Wizardry, Witchcraft.
I think God doesn't tell us how the witches and sorcerers bring the spirits and speak to the Dead, but simply forbid us to do them.
If RCC claims that they do such things, they are admitting that they are nothing but the sorcerers and the customers for the witchcrafts.

3) Saul himself didn't see Samuel first ( v 13)
v 13 tells us that the woman saw gods ascending out of the Earth.
I am not sure what she mentioned is correct, but she said gods are coming. That's her expression as there is no gods except the only God.

4) Saul recognized Samuel by hearing from the woman ( v 14)
Saul could not see Samuel, but he reacted according to what he heard from the woman, which is typical to the situation with the divination.
This indicates that the following dialogue between Samuel and Saul was not done between 2 persons directly, but the woman spoke on behalf of Samuel, then Saul stooped down to the ground.
This is very important point to notice, because I am sure Samuel didn't show up bodily to Saul, but his spirit may have been in the minds of the sorcery woman. Then the woman behaved like Samuel. Saul was speaking to the woman though she was acting as if she had been Samuel.

5) If any religion insist on the Talking to the Dead or Speaking to the Dead based on this story, it means that the very religion is a kind of the sorcery and do the divination-like trying to bring the spirit of the dead.

6) Speaking to the Dead or Sorcery never brought good results in the human life, I believe.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm coming in a little late on this debate, but there seems to be something missing here.

The witch at Endor didn't conjure up anyone. She never could. She was just like people who dabble in occultic practices today....99.99% of it is pure rubbish with the intent to fool people, gain money, or both.

Verse 12 says that when the witch actually saw Samuel, she cried out for fear. Why was she so shocked to see him if that's what she professed that she was doing as an occupation - seeing and talking to dead people? She should have *yawned* in boredom. But she didn't, she screamed in fear.

It's because she was a liar as well as a witch. People would ask to speak with the dead and she would perform her little routine and claim to see them and speak for them. Much like Jonathan Edwards today.

God was the one who brought Samuel's dead spirit forth to deliver bad news to Saul. And He didn't act because the witch "conjured" anything.

Why did God speak to Saul through a witch? Because that's where Saul's heart was. Saul wasn't seeking God. He was seeking a relief to his fears of the Philistines. Saul was a cowardly man from the beginning and he wasn't seeking God's leadership nor Samuel's Godly wisdom. He just wanted either God, in his previous and failed attempts to pray, or Samuel, by prophesying, to tell him what to do to be victorious. Samuel's spirit tells Saul that God has turned his back on Saul and isn't speaking to him anymore and that failure is coming.

This witch never spoke with any dead person, that is evidence by her reaction to actually seeing a dead person.

What she is given credit for her and what happened when some of the disciples saw Moses and Elijah cannot be compared.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm coming in a little late on this debate, but there seems to be something missing here.

The witch at Endor didn't conjure up anyone. She never could. She was just like people who dabble in occultic practices today....99.99% of it is pure rubbish with the intent to fool people, gain money, or both.

Preach it!

That is right she had no such power and neither does anyone today. God alone can actually raise the dead. Not even Satan can do it!

Just as there are no false gods that "exist" but rather demons step in whenever humans blindly worship as IF false gods exist -- so the spirits of the dead are NOT available for lunch with the living and those who suppose they are open to a fireside chat are being deceived by demons "instead".

Verse 12 says that when the witch actually saw Samuel, she cried out for fear. Why was she so shocked to see him if that's what she professed that she was doing as an occupation - seeing and talking to dead people? She should have *yawned* in boredom. But she didn't, she screamed in fear.

It's because she was a liar as well as a witch. People would ask to speak with the dead and she would perform her little routine and claim to see them and speak for them. Much like Jonathan Edwards today.

In 1Sam 28 the problem is that it is revealed to the witch that the one she is serving is in fact SAUL and that Saul has decreed that anyone caught doing what she claims to do - must die. She is in genuine fear of a "Sting" operation.

But this is not a case of God giving a wicked witch power over a dead prophet. Recall that in the previous chapter God forbade Samuel or any prophet from ministering to Saul. How then are we to suppose that the witch is "given power" to contradict what God forbade?

Furthermore in the Chronicles account of the exact same story we are told that God "turned to be the enemy of Saul" when Saul went to the medium to "inquire of IT". God shows that this is not a case of Saul accessing anything more than a demon and a demon's servant. Saul is never called "an IT" in scripture and neither is any saint. Only demons have that designation from time to time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Samuel's spirit tells Saul that God has turned his back on Saul and isn't speaking to him anymore and that failure is coming.

This witch never spoke with any dead person, that is evidence by her reaction to actually seeing a dead person.

I am not sure whether God wanted to bring Samuel up. Nothing in the world can happen without either will or providence or allowance or tacit tolerance of God, and therefore in that sense Samuel may have been allowed by God, to be brought up. But the woman said she saw an old man covered with mantle, then Saul recognized him. We cannot say that the witch didn't know anything about the situation. It was thru this woman that Saul recognized Samuel. Moreover she detected the Inquirer was Saul for herself (v 12). Before that time she seems not to have known him. The reaction by her was a surprise, but it was not because the dead man showed up, but because she recognized it was Samuel and a certain attitude from him toward the inquirer which may mean the identity of the Inquirer-Saul.
I don't deny that witches and sorcerers can recognize what the normal people can not do, by the assistance of devil. The Devil could memorize even the Bible verses. They don't work out the righteousness and justice.
In that sense still I think Samuel spoke thru the witch as I explained. Otherwise you may be believing that the Dead can speak to the living person from time to time under the permission or allowance of God. In that case you may be agreeing that the Dead persons can talk to the living person or call the living person, which is a nonsense, IMO.
So, I would stay with my comment on this.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

This is very important situation.
If RCC claims any prayer to the Dead, then it may be because they are completely deserted by God.
Otherwise, why cannot they ask God directly for everything? Do they fear God so much that they cannot pray to God directly? Why? May be because they are not forgiven their sins yet?

Eliyahu, so I’m assuming that you don’t pray for someone in your church or ask anyone else to pray for you huh? I mean, why not go directly to God Eliyahu? I know you pray for others and ask others to pray for you…Praying for each other is what Christians do…so do you fear God so much Eliyahu that you cannot pray directly to God?

If you were true to logic, as it pretends to be, I may boldly affirm that not only Anglicans, but all Protestant sects (even the worst) would either admit serious and earnest addresses to saints and angels, or reject the mutual prayers of Christians on earth. Why, then, are they rejected, nay, often condemned?

Furthermore, Catholics are strongly encouraged to pray directly to God for every pressing need. In fact the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship are direct to God and Jesus, not the saints.

In addition, the bible says that God answers the prayers of the righteous; so how much righteous is the loved ones or saints in heaven than those on earth? Are they still the Body of Christ? Didn’t Christ say we are grafted into the vine? Once a loved one dies, is he separated from the vine…cut off?
-

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu, so I’m assuming that you don’t pray for someone in your church or ask anyone else to pray for you huh? I mean, why not go directly to God Eliyahu? I know you pray for others and ask others to pray for you…Praying for each other is what Christians do…so do you fear God so much Eliyahu that you cannot pray directly to God?
-

You don't distinguish between the Dead people and the Living people, do you?

Do you keep the dead body in the refrigerator and pray to the Dead for the help? Then does God help you? Ridiculous pagan religion!

Bible answers to you:

Isaiah 8:
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

 

[DHK]

so I’m assuming that you don’t pray for someone in your church or ask anyone else to pray for you huh?

There is a great difference between these two statements:
I pray for someone; BUT
Never do I pray TO someone.
That is to no one except to God. Even praying to Mary is idolatry and is involved in the occultish practice of necromancy--praying to the dead.

 

[Eliyahu]

Talking to the Dead cannot be sustained unless one believe the deity of the Dead.

Let's say A man died who became canonized later. Then the people may pray to him from France, from Philippines, from China, from Russia, from Brazil, from Canada, from Mexico, from Italy. Can he answer to all the prayers from all over the world? What about 1000 years ago? Does the dead man A understand what the questions and the subjects of the prayer?
What if the man A move to Russia while some people in France pray to him ( or thru him)?
Isn't the prayer become useless and vain?


What about the language? Could Apostle Paul understand the Japanese? What about English? Did Paul ever speak in English?

Are there enough number of translators in the Paradise?

Are the Dead people not weary for listening to the prayers for 2000 years?

Maybe they were sick and tired of listening to the foolish prayers from ridiculous people and therefore they are sleeping now! as in the Bible 1 Thess 4:13-15 and 1 Cor 11:30, 15:20.

Unless the Dead become Omni-Present, Omni-Scient, the prayer to the Dead is meaningless or useless.

When do the capacities of the Dead people become so much Omni-Present, Omni-Scient, Omni-Potent? Does death make such explosion ?

Maybe only in the delusion of the people who like to believe in the vanity.

 

[BobRyan]

There is a great difference between these two statements:
I pray for someone; BUT
Never do I pray TO someone.
That is to no one except to God. Even praying to Mary is idolatry and is involved in the occultish practice of necromancy--praying to the dead.

Well said.

Agnus asks if WE the living pray for OTHER living people. Surely the bible endorses the fact that the LIVING go to the LIVING (consult the LIVING) for their prayers (as does Paul in Eph 6 asking the LIVING to pray for him).

But is it right to equivocate between solitiation and consultation of the LIVING to pray FOR us- with consulting the DEAD for the same favors "on behalf of the living"??


Isaiah 8 says "no" it says such man-made-traditions are dead wrong.

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Furthermore, Catholics are strongly encouraged to pray directly to God for every pressing need. In fact the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship are direct to God and Jesus, not the saints.

NOT the saints??

Oh really?

I seem to recall an encyclical a few years ago on the subject of "praying directly to God" and how this was an error of non-Catholics.

I will do some research.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In addition, the bible says that God answers the prayers of the righteous; so how much righteous is the loved ones or saints in heaven than those on earth? Are they still the Body of Christ? Didn’t Christ say we are grafted into the vine? Once a loved one dies, is he separated from the vine…cut off?
-

You have two problems with this level of equivocation between the dead and the living.

#1. The dead are not available to us AT ALL according to Is 8:20. We have NO ability to actually consult them for ANY REASON not even for intercessory prayers!!

#2. EVEN in the case of Enoch and Elijah who we know are NOT dead but were taken directly to heaven WITHOUT seeing death (and also Moses who according to Matt 17 is resurrected to be in the same state as Elijah) - we do not pray to THEM EITHER and THEY are undisputedly the LIVING!

As Eliyahu points out - we have no indication that they are god-like enough to hear all prayers around the world. No Bible example of such a thing no not in ALL of scripture!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Again I think we should clearly distinguish between Prayer to the Dead and Prayer for the Dead.

Any prayer to the Dead can be found ridiculous unless anyone believe the Explosive increase of the capacity of the Dead up to the level of god after the death.
Acceptance of the prayers from all over the world during all the ages of time requires Omni-Presence, Omni-Science, and Omni-Potence which belongs only to God.

Therefore if anyone is sane, she or he would not do the Prayer to the Dead or Prayer thru the Dead. When someone is doing such Prayer to the Dead, how God will see the person?


I think the Idol worshippers who pray to the stone, ceramic, wood, and other materials, are accustomed to praying to the Dead who cannot hear, cannot speak.

If they believe that the Dead can hear the prayer, then why can they not speak to the praying person? Are the Dead hearing only? Why they can hear but cannot speak?

But the Prayer for the Dead is totally different issue.
It doesn't require that the Dead should have the deity or the Omni-Presence or Omni-Science. But the question is " can the living person change the spiritual status of the Dead by praying to God? " or "Did God allow us to pray for the Dead?" The Bible teaches us that the Dead are sleeping. What can God do to the sleeping men?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

There is a great difference between these two statements:
I pray for someone; BUT
Never do I pray TO someone.

This certainly begs the question also about prayer. What is prayer? What makes it prayer? If I ask you DHK to pray for me am I praying to you?

I believe the word pray simply means to ask. Or do we give it a different meaning as something we can only do with spiritual beings?

Simply put, if it’s wrong to ask a saint to pray for you, then don’t bother asking anyone else to pray for you either.
-

 

[Alcott]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about dropping by the grave to throw a few flowers on there and say "Hi ___, things aren't going too well these days." Or now, with the web, when a celebrity dies, turn to message boards where words will be found, and add, "___, thanks for the laughs and the memories; I'm going to miss you." On some, like sitcomsonline.com, people even address the character that actor was known for playing; such as when Eddie Albert [Green Acres] died a couple of years ago, some poster said she knows he is now in heaven having "Lisa's" hotcakes, to which another poster replied "That would be hell."

Maybe posts like that are just junk figures of speech, but does that still violate (1)the prohibition against conversing with the dead (familiar spirits), and/or (2)the prohibition against "having anything to do" with anything occult-- including referring to it for laughs, reading horoscopes for "amusement," or any superstitions like a bride refusing to see the groom on the wedding day before the wedding?

But then what about tributes? On www.findagrave.com , noted persons' lives and places of burial [or arrangements for final disposition] are given, and there is a "Virtual Flowers" feature in which 'messages' can be left. Most of them are along the line "Thank you for all you did for ___; I miss you..." For some this is no longer available, with the note "Sorry the Virtual Flowers feature for this person has been turned off, as it was being continually misused." IOW, people were leaving derogatory or nasty messages. Some to whom this apply that I have seen are Richard Nixon, Jefferson Davis, George Custer, Lee Harvey Oswald, Joseph McCarthy-- I don't think Jerry Falwell is even in the grave [or whatever] yet, and its' already been turned off for him!

Anyway, is this also scripturally prohibited "conversing with the dead?"

 

[Eliyahu]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about dropping by the grave to throw a few flowers on there and say "Hi ___, things aren't going too well these days." Or now, with the web, when a celebrity dies, turn to message boards where words will be found, and add, "___, thanks for the laughs and the memories; I'm going to miss you." On some, like sitcomsonline.com, people even address the character that actor was known for playing; such as when Eddie Albert [Green Acres] died a couple of years ago, some poster said she knows he is now in heaven having "Lisa's" hotcakes, to which another poster replied "That would be hell."

Maybe posts like that are just junk figures of speech, but does that still violate (1)the prohibition against conversing with the dead (familiar spirits), and/or (2)the prohibition against "having anything to do" with anything occult-- including referring to it for laughs, reading horoscopes for "amusement," or any superstitions like a bride refusing to see the groom on the wedding day before the wedding?

But then what about tributes? On www.findagrave.com , noted persons' lives and places of burial [or arrangements for final disposition] are given, and there is a "Virtual Flowers" feature in which 'messages' can be left. Most of them are along the line "Thank you for all you did for ___; I miss you..." For some this is no longer available, with the note "Sorry the Virtual Flowers feature for this person has been turned off, as it was being continually misused." IOW, people were leaving derogatory or nasty messages. Some to whom this apply that I have seen are Richard Nixon, Jefferson Davis, George Custer, Lee Harvey Oswald, Joseph McCarthy-- I don't think Jerry Falwell is even in the grave [or whatever] yet, and its' already been turned off for him!

Anyway, is this also scripturally prohibited "conversing with the dead?"

Could they hear you?
What was their response?
How close do you have to be to the tomb when they hear you?
What kind of flowers do they like? Is it depending on your hobby or imagination ?
If I ask you more questions, you may realize something.

 

[Alcott]

Could they hear you?

Could who hear me? I talk to few living people, and no dead ones.

What was their response?

To what?

How close do you have to be to the tomb when they hear you?

When who hears? Are you insinuating I think people who have long croaked have hearing organs?

What kind of flowers do they like?

Who?

Is it depending on your hobby or imagination ?

What's "it?"

If I ask you more questions, you may realize something.

Like what? That you and a horse's hindquarters have much in common?