Talking to the DEAD

[Agnus_Dei]

There are NO EXAMPLES (no not even ONE) of anyone in scripture consulting the dead with the request that the DEAD pray for the LIVING!
No not even ONE!!

We do see instances in scripture were someone does pray to a dead saint. Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who dies. St. Peter prayed to her when he said: Tabitha, rise. She was dead Bob, dead, and Paul was addressing her…cased closed (Acts 9:36-41).

Christ Himself does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus a DEAD MAN and then Christ speaks directly to a DEAD MAN …Lazarus, come out.

The Bible tells us that other disciples raised people from the dead. So presumably, they would follow the same model of Jesus, whom prayed to the dead person by addressing them while they were STILL DEAD.

So there are at least two if not more instances of people in the Bible contacting the dead.

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18).

…But I’m sure you have some argument against these examples….
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[Eliyahu]

We do see instances in scripture were someone does pray to a dead saint. Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who dies. St. Peter prayed to her when he said: Tabitha, rise. She was dead Bob, dead, and Paul was addressing her…cased closed (Acts 9:36-41).

Christ Himself does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus a DEAD MAN and then Christ speaks directly to a DEAD MAN …Lazarus, come out.

The Bible tells us that other disciples raised people from the dead. So presumably, they would follow the same model of Jesus, whom prayed to the dead person by addressing them while they were STILL DEAD.

So there are at least two if not more instances of people in the Bible contacting the dead.

Do you raise the dead? Do you resurrect the dead person to be alive?

Or do you just keep the dead to continue to be dead and talk to them?
So, you are confessing that RCC keeps the Dead to continue to be dead, while the True Christianity raise the dead, right?

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18).
…But I’m sure you have some argument against these examples….
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Elijah raised the dead boy to be alive, and his mother thanked Elijah when he said "See, thy son liveth" ( 1 Kings 17:23) Then his mother said " I know that thou are a man of God"
Do Catholic do this miracle?

Do you believe Onesiphorus was dead when he often visited Paul in the prison? So you interpret that Onesiphorus as a ghost visited Paul in chain?

Your interpretation sound like a sorcerer's or diviner's interpretation.
Onesiphorus was alive when he visited Paul in Prison often and therefore Paul prayed the Lord to bless his house.

 

[BobRyan]

We do see instances in scripture were someone does pray to a dead saint. Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who dies. St. Peter prayed to her when he said: Tabitha, rise. She was dead Bob, dead, and Paul was addressing her…cased closed (Acts 9:36-41).

In John 11 When Christ commands "Lazarus come forth" Christ is NOT "praying to Lazarus". To spin this into a "prayer TO Lazarus" is to eisegete in the extreme.

The miracle of raising the dead is NOT an act of the Dead person. Only CHRIST as the God-Man "had LIFE IN HIMSELF" so that He alone could say "I have POWER to lay it down and I have POWER to take it up again".

To ascribe to the dead the power of GOD - is to fabricate the false teaching of false gods.

Christ Himself does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus a DEAD MAN and then Christ speaks directly to a DEAD MAN …Lazarus, come out.

The Bible tells us that other disciples raised people from the dead.

Here again we see your bold "equivocation" between the DEAD and those who had power to RAISE the dead. In Matt 10 Christ is seen to give his disciples POWER to raise the dead. But you here ascribe that POWER to the DEAD instead of the living and are arguing that the living merely "PRAY TO THE DEAD" asking them to raise themselves.

But it is obvious to ALL that NO REQUEST is being made TO THE DEAD! They are not being asked to DO something -- rather the one WITH the power to RAISE them - gives the command AND THEY ARE raised up!

The fact that your argument has gone to this clearly flawed point is proof that you had no substance at all for your argument in scripture. Why else resort to such a flawed argument?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

Fortunately the protestant Christians can join the Hebrew people of God in saying this practice of consulting the dead (no matter WHICH dead it is) -- should stop.


Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a very clear example of what it means to pray TO the dead --

notice each of the componants of this act of resorting to the dead for "favors".

a prayer to st. Jude.
Quote:

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/b]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.[/b]
amen.>>

Now let us imagine for a second that it was VALID to equivocate between this aggregious consultation of the dead -- and the NT and OT examples of the LIVING given power to RAISE the dead!!

Suppose Christ's prayer to the FATHER in John 11 were to be a prayer TO LAZARUS instead.

"Lazarus I emplore YOU to hear my prayer and answer me. GRANT that you would raise YOURSELF in answer to my earnest prayer. IF you would just do this for me - I will be forever grateful TO You and will encourage others to DEVOTION to YOU"

Of course you can only "imagine it" since this kind of thing is not found in ALL of scripture - no not even ONCE!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As always when arguing FOR the case of praying TO the dead the argument rests in "imagination alone" plus an abuse of scripture that hopes that the reader will not READ the text of scripture being abused.

So let's go TO 1Kings 17 to SEE IF a prayer is found there TO THE DEAD.

1 Kings 17

17Now it came about after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became sick; and his sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him.

18So she said to Elijah, "What do I have to do with you, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my iniquity to remembrance and to put my son to death!"
19He said to her, "Give me your son." Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed.
20He called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?"
21Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him."
22The LORD heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived.
23Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother; and Elijah said, "See, your son is alive." 24Then the woman said to Elijah, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the word of the LORD in your mouth is truth."

The only way faithfully render the details IN the text and still call this a "prayer TO THE DEAD" is to argue that "God is DEAD".

 

[Eliyahu]

The only way faithfully render the details IN the text and still call this a "prayer TO THE DEAD" is to argue that "God is DEAD".

Excellent comment !:thumbs:
To Roman Catholic, God is dead.

 

[Eliyahu]

Here is a very clear example of what it means to pray TO the dead --

notice each of the componants of this act of resorting to the dead for "favors".




Now let us imagine for a second that it was VALID to equivocate between this aggregious consultation of the dead -- and the NT and OT examples of the LIVING given power to RAISE the dead!!

Suppose Christ's prayer to the FATHER in John 11 were to be a prayer TO LAZARUS instead.

"Lazarus I emplore YOU to hear my prayer and answer me. GRANT that you would raise YOURSELF in answer to my earnest prayer. IF you would just do this for me - I will be forever grateful TO You and will encourage others to DEVOTION to YOU"

Of course you can only "imagine it" since this kind of thing is not found in ALL of scripture - no not even ONCE!

In Christ,

Bob

Ecellent Point and Comparison again! :thumbs:

 

[Eliyahu]

In John 11 When Christ commands "Lazarus come forth" Christ is NOT "praying to Lazarus". To spin this into a "prayer TO Lazarus" is to eisegete in the extreme.

The miracle of raising the dead is NOT an act of the Dead person. Only CHRIST as the God-Man "had LIFE IN HIMSELF" so that He alone could say "I have POWER to lay it down and I have POWER to take it up again".

To ascribe to the dead the power of GOD - is to fabricate the false teaching of false gods.



Here again we see your bold "equivocation" between the DEAD and those who had power to RAISE the dead. In Matt 10 Christ is seen to give his disciples POWER to raise the dead. But you here ascribe that POWER to the DEAD instead of the living and are arguing that the living merely "PRAY TO THE DEAD" asking them to raise themselves.

But it is obvious to ALL that NO REQUEST is being made TO THE DEAD! They are not being asked to DO something -- rather the one WITH the power to RAISE them - gives the command AND THEY ARE raised up!

The fact that your argument has gone to this clearly flawed point is proof that you had no substance at all for your argument in scripture. Why else resort to such a flawed argument?

In Christ,

Bob

Good Post for everyone to read ! :thumbs: Pagan Eisegesis cheat them who hold such interpretation. How miserable they are ! We must pray for them, not for the dead.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Excellent comment !:thumbs:
To Roman Catholic, God is dead.

Ridiculous statement.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ridiculous statement.

Ridiculous Reaction!

 

[tragic_pizza]

Ridiculous Reaction!

No, it isn't.

You;re accusing fellow brothers and sisters in Christ of athiesm.

Prove it, or apologize and admit you haven't a clue.

 

[DHK]

No, it isn't.

You;re accusing fellow brothers and sisters in Christ of athiesm.

Prove it, or apologize and admit you haven't a clue.

It attributes the attributes that are due only to God alone: omniscience, omnipresence, to all the various saints the the RCC pray to, and thus makes their religion polytheistic (like the Hindu religion) or pagan. Ther is only one God, not many. Mary, Peter, Paul, and all the others that are prayed to cannot be everywhere at all times to hear all Catholics in all countries in all languages throughout all ages. They are not God (gods). But the Catholic religion has made them gods reducing itself to a pagan religion.

 

[Eliyahu]

No, it isn't.

You;re accusing fellow brothers and sisters in Christ of athiesm.

Prove it, or apologize and admit you haven't a clue.

No, I don't consider the pagan, fake Christians as the brothers and sisters in Christ. Otherwise I must be cheated by them. In order to prove they are the Christians, they must present the true testimony of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Praying to the Dead means that they treat the Dead as their god.
Rightly BobRyan pointed out that Eliajh prayed to God, not to the Dead. But Agnus Dei claimed that Elijah prayed to the Dead.

Therefore rightly BR mentioned this:

The only way faithfully render the details IN the text and still call this a "prayer TO THE DEAD" is to argue that "God is DEAD".

Agnus Dei told us this ( Elijah story) is the proof of praying to the Dead.
Unless he repeal that claim, it means that he still consider the Dead as his god. This is not the testimony from the true Christians at all.
You didn't read the post by BR, did you? If you did, you wouldn't have reacted like that.

 

[tragic_pizza]

It attributes the attributes that are due only to God alone: omniscience, omnipresence, to all the various saints the the RCC pray to, and thus makes their religion polytheistic (like the Hindu religion) or pagan. Ther is only one God, not many. Mary, Peter, Paul, and all the others that are prayed to cannot be everywhere at all times to hear all Catholics in all countries in all languages throughout all ages. They are not God (gods). But the Catholic religion has made them gods reducing itself to a pagan religion.

Almost, but not precisely, wrong.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Praying to the Dead means that they treat the Dead as their god.
Rightly BobRyan pointed out that Eliajh prayed to God, not to the Dead. But Agnus Dei claimed that Elijah prayed to the Dead.

Therefore rightly BR mentioned this:


Agnus Dei told us this ( Elijah story) is the proof of praying to the Dead.
Unless he repeal that claim, it means that he still consider the Dead as his god. This is not the testimony from the true Christians at all.
You didn't read the post by BR, did you? If you did, you wouldn't have reacted like that.

I would appreciate it if you Eliyahu and BR, would pay more attention to what people post on this thread. I bet you failed reading comprehension in school huh?

I stated in my post #81 that Eliyah prayed for the dead, not to the dead!

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18).​

In addition the Catholic faith believes in one God, have you never read the Creeds? Your IGNORANT of both Roman Catholic Theology and Scripture

What a shame...
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[DHK]

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18).​

In addition the Catholic faith believes in one God, have you never read the Creeds? Your IGNORANT of both Roman Catholic Theology and Scripture

What a shame...
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You have made some grave hermeneutical errors, assuming facts not present. Demonstrate or give evidence that Omesiporus was a dead man. This is an utterly frimilous conclusion with no basis in fact. It is an assumption, a guess, a conclusion based on nothing. It certainly is not based on the context of the passage, which BTW, has already been pointed out to you, and you obviously have failed to read:

2 Timothy 1:15-18 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

1. Prayers don't start with "this thou knowest." It is not a prayer. Verse 15 is the first verse of the paragraph. It is instruction to Timothy. The book is a pastoral epistle, an epistle of instruction to Timothy of advice in church matters. This is not a prayer.
2. In the conclusion of chapter one, he mentions to Timothy the help that Onesiphorus had been to him; it is not a prayer. The WEB translation simply says "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus..." We often make similar statements, statements of fact. They are not prayers.
3. And then he gives the reason why the Lord should bless him--because he was a help to Paul when he was in prison. Dead people don't help others in prison. BTW, Paul wrote this epistle while in prison. It is also known as a "prison epistle. It is the last epistle that he ever wrote. Read the last chapter where he says "my time is at hand." He knows that he will soon be executed.
4. If Onesphorus were dead Paul would never had written verse 18. The fact that Paul wrote witht the judgement seat in mind, "find mercy in that day," is evidence that he was still alive. Paul never prayed for a dead person. Furthermore, the event that he is referring to is in the future giving more credence to the fact that Onesiphorus is still alive.
Dead people don't serve prisoners.
Are your really that far into the occult?

 

[DHK]

In addition the Catholic faith believes in one God, have you never read the Creeds? Your IGNORANT of both Roman Catholic Theology and Scripture

What a shame...
-

It is ashame that you give attributes that are due only to God to the dead in heaven, thus making your religion polytheistic. Only God can be omnipresent and omniscient. But you have made all the so-called "saints" in heaven gods.

 

[tragic_pizza]

It is ashame that you give attributes that are due only to God to the dead in heaven, thus making your religion polytheistic. Only God can be omnipresent and omniscient. But you have made all the so-called "saints" in heaven gods.

Broad brush much?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

You have made some grave hermeneutical errors, assuming facts not present. Demonstrate or give evidence that Omesiporus was a dead man. This is an utterly frimilous conclusion with no basis in fact. It is an assumption, a guess, a conclusion based on nothing. It certainly is not based on the context of the passage, which BTW, has already been pointed out to you, and you obviously have failed to read:

2 Timothy 1:15-18 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

1. Prayers don't start with "this thou knowest." It is not a prayer. Verse 15 is the first verse of the paragraph. It is instruction to Timothy. The book is a pastoral epistle, an epistle of instruction to Timothy of advice in church matters. This is not a prayer.
2. In the conclusion of chapter one, he mentions to Timothy the help that Onesiphorus had been to him; it is not a prayer. The WEB translation simply says "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus..." We often make similar statements, statements of fact. They are not prayers.
3. And then he gives the reason why the Lord should bless him--because he was a help to Paul when he was in prison. Dead people don't help others in prison. BTW, Paul wrote this epistle while in prison. It is also known as a "prison epistle. It is the last epistle that he ever wrote. Read the last chapter where he says "my time is at hand." He knows that he will soon be executed.
4. If Onesphorus were dead Paul would never had written verse 18. The fact that Paul wrote witht the judgement seat in mind, "find mercy in that day," is evidence that he was still alive. Paul never prayed for a dead person. Furthermore, the event that he is referring to is in the future giving more credence to the fact that Onesiphorus is still alive.
Dead people don't serve prisoners.
Are your really that far into the occult?

Look class another one that has seemingly failed reading comprehension. Re-read my post again DHK, I said that Paul seemingly prays for Onesiphours. And yes, an honest reading of 2 Timothy 1:16-18, one does get the feeling that something has happened to him, for Paul ask for mercy unto the house of Onesiphours (normally when someone we know dies, we send a sympathy card, which often asks God to comfort them), why would Paul ask for mercy upon the his house? Paul also ask the Lord to have mercy on him in that day…

Also, no comment on 1 Kings huh?

And no the Roman Catholic Church is far from the occult, silly DHK…even my hard core ex fundy preacher would stop short of lumping the Catholics in with the JWs, Mormons and SDA’s (sorry Bob…)
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