Talking to the DEAD

[Eliyahu]

Well Eliyahu, for your information Catholicism isn’t the only ones that ask our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession. Eastern Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians and even some Anglicans all practice this practices, which means that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth.

Then it is good that we tackle this very important issue as the majority of the so-called Christendom run on the Broadway leading to the destruction!

Just as you were unable to demonstrate any Early Church Fathers that spoke out against the Real Presence, you will be hard pressed to do the same regarding the communion of saints. So by all means knock yourself out and show the class.

You could never bring the ECF's who claimed that the Believers should eat Blood despite the prohibitions in OT. You are trying to lean on the ECF's again as you resorted to them whenever you could find no ground in the Bible. This proves that you don't believe in the Bible, right?

In addition Eliyahu you are majorly confused concerning those brothers and sisters in Christ that have passed on. You seem to suggest that they are dead…again the Word of God

John 11:26 Jesus says: ...and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Hmmm…all this talk of “praying to the Dead, when those of whom we are speaking of aren’t even dead!

You are confused here again. We do have the eternal life and are living forever. But after we die, we are sleeping in the Paradise ( or called Bosom of Abraham). Where did Jesus say that you should pray thru the Dead?

Luke 20:38 Jesus says again, Now He is not God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to Him. Now, if God is not the God of the dead, and if the saints are no longer living, then God is no longer their God? When you die, will God cease to be your God Eliyahu?

As I mentioned already, To God, all are living as He can raise anyone whom He wishes. Are you God? Have you created the world?
Saints are sleeping, then do you need to pray to the sleeping? or thru the sleeping? Can you not pray directly to the God the Father? What kind of fear do you have that you don't pray to God directly?

If you will concede that the Saints are alive, is it reasonable then to suppose that these same Saints, who prayed for each other and for all Christians while on earth, would lose interest in us once they reach the kingdom of heaven?

I already told you they are sleeping. Read the Bible, 1 Cor 11:27-30, 15:20-25, 1 Thessalonians 4. Can you not accept that the believers are sleeping after they die?.

If 1.3 billion Catholic pray to the dead woman, Mary, from France, from South America, from Philippines, from Japan, can she listen to them from everywhere?

Jerome wrote in the fourth century:

If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?


​

Neither Moses, nor Stephen, nor Paul prayed to the dead or thru the dead.
Jerome couldn't be right in everything. Moreover such writings cannot be authenticated as the Bible is supported by the thousands of manuscripts. How many manuscripts support what Jerome said?

Just as the Saints were once in the flesh, so we are now. But in Christ, we are all part of the Mystical Body. Romans 12:4-5 says: For as in one body we have many members, and all members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Would you dare to say that when a Saint dies, he ceases to be a member of the Body of Christ? I don’t believe that any thinking Christian would. What then, would you believe their function to be?

Again, the dead believers are sleeping. As there are members which are not working but taking rest, some parts are taking rest and sleeping.

​

The early Fathers of the Church unanimously taught the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints. Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom all wrote concerning the intercession of the Saints as early as the fourth century.

Was there any census or opinion survey among the believers at that time? If the records of all ECF's are wrong against Bible, would you follow ECF over Bible?
What if ECF's contradict Bible, which would you take?

John Chrysostom wrote:

When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies... but to His friends, the martyrs, the Saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.​

It is clear that even by the early centuries of the Church, intercession of the Saints was a well-established, widely accepted doctrine; a doctrine that has endured nearly two millennia, and only within the last 500 years has been denied, by other Christians.
-

It may be well established by the pagan religion such as RCC, but not by the Bible believers!

None of the True believers like Donatists(Donatustians), Novatians, Paulicians, Albigenes, Waldensians, Anabaptists, Bogomils showed such practices of praying to the Dead. This is why we call them True Believers, not the pagan-fake Christians like RCC.

Let me ask you some more questions:

1) Could Mary accept the prayers from all over the world while she was alive?

2) Did Mary ever accept the prayer from the people and pass it to Jesus ( Not the personal hearing but praying) while she was alive?

3) Did Mary accept any prayer while she was sleeping when she was alive?

4) If 1.3 billion Catholic pray to ( or thru) Apostle Paul and Mary, then can they listen to them from all over the world, from South America, from Italy, from Asia, from Canada, from Russia ?

5) Could Mary or Abraham understand about the computer problems, automobile accidents, airplane reservation difficulties, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer, etc while they were alive? Then after the death, have they become Omniscient?

6) Could the dead believers travel everywhere at every moment?
How could they become Omni-Present?

7) When did their capacities explode?
Do the people's capacities explode only if they die?

Maybe, their capacities have exploed only in the minds of the pagan believers!

Nevertheless, are ECF's always right depite their contradiction to the Bible?

Do you believe ECF's over Bible teachings?

 

[BobRyan]

in the case of the OP - we have both Samuel and Moses as those who "have died".

In 1Thess 4 and in 1Cor 15 these are all referred to "as the dead" until they are bodily "resurrected".

So the question in the OP is directed at those who would equivocate between the actions of the witch of Endor in conjuring up the dead (Samuel) and the actions of Christ in Matt 17 with Moses.

My argument is that Christ is either raising Moses from the DEAD at that time OR Jude is correct when it quotes the book the "Assumption of Moses" and Christ had in fact already raised Moses.

But if you reject that -(and some do) - and if you are among those who argue that both the witch and Christ are doing the same thing - conjuring the dead (an argument made on this board by both Catholic and non-Catholic posters) - then I ask if you are not in fact opening a huge door to not only "prayers to the dead" but all forms of spiritism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnus_Dei
Well Eliyahu, for your information Catholicism isn’t the only ones that ask our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession. Eastern Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians and even some Anglicans all practice this practices, which means that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth.

Eliyahoo
Then it is good that we tackle this very important issue as the majority of the so-called Christendom run on the Broadway leading to the destruction!

Now THAT is an instructive exchange!!

Everyone knows I love to debate the RC POV however "credit where credit is due". Agnus-dei makes a very good point.

The MAJORITY of Christians pray to the dead.

The MAJORITY of Christians belong to denominations that are actively teaching the doctrines of atheist darwinism "as fact" in their universities and even from the pulpit.

The MAJORITY of Christians belong to a denomination that equates church tradition as being on the same level of authority as "Scripture".

The MAJORITY of Christians baptize infants thus rejecting all forms of baptism SEEN in scripture.

(Not wanting to debate all those doctrines here ) - the point is that if you are going to slam all Christians by measuring them against what the MARJORITY believe - then the RC argument is a home run. If you were to judge all Jewish groups by what the MAJORITY of Jews believed in Christ's day - we would be rejecting Christ as the Messiah today. IF you wanted to judge all Christians by what the MAJORITY believed at the time of Martin Luther - the reformation would never have gotten off the ground.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[JFox1]

Mediums and others have used to Bible to justify what they do, but they're not taking into consideration that when Moses, who had died, and Elijah, who was taken alive into Heaven, were talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration, Jesus is not only a man but also God. As God, Jesuis can talk with anyone He wants. In Matthew Chapter 4, Jesus had a conversation with the Devil. How many people have had a conversation with the Devil?

Someone said that Moses was resurrected and referred to the pseudopigraphical book, The Assumption of Moses. No church uses The Assumption of Moses as part of its canon.

According to Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Samuel was still dead and spoke to King Saul: Even after Samuel died, he prophesied, revealing to the king that he, too, would die. Samuel spoke from the grave to prophesy and blot out the wickedness of the people. Sirach 46:20 NLT Catholic reference edition. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Coptic, and the Ethiopian churches use Sirach as part of their canon.

Someone expressed a concern that this would lead to spiritism and/or praying for the dead. I Chronicles 10:13 stated, "So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord. He failed to obey the Lord's command, and he even consulted a medium instead of asking the Lord for guidance. So the Lord killed him and turned his kingdom over to David son of Jesse. NLT. Many years later, God became angry with King Manasseh because of his many sins, including consulting mediums (see II Chronicles 33:4-7). Although he prophesied, Samuel was upset with King Saul for conjuring him: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, Samuel asked, and brought me to earth again? I Kings (I Samuel) 28:15 Knox translation.

The footnote for I Samuel 28:12 in the New American Bible states, "Human beings cannot communicate at will with the souls of the dead. God may, however, permit a departed soul to appear to the living and even disclose things unknown to them. Saul's own prohibition of necromancy and divination (v 3) was in keeping with the consistent teaching of the Old Testament. If we are to credit the reality of the apparition to Saul, it was due, not to the summons of the witch, but to God's will; the woman merely furnished the occasion."

Roman Catholics pray for the dead to help them get out of Purgatory. The Eastern Orthodox also pray for the dead. Although they don't believe in Purgatory, they believe prayer can help those who have died. The only Protestants I know of who pray for the dead are the Episcopalians. "Q. Why do we pray for the dead? A. We pray for them, because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is." Page 862, 1979 Book of Common Prayer.

Someone on another message board pointed out:

Pray, pray. Pray without ceasing; why, because:
1. God is omniscient (all knowing).
2. God is not limited by time.
3. Any prayer we pray: He already knows and therefore has effect, yesterday, today and forever.
4. Prayer is without limits.
5. James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
6. I find that praying for my dead loved ones can have an effect because of God's ability to know my prayer before I even pray.

raying: :1_grouphug: :jesus: :godisgood:

 

[Ex-Fundy]

I don't talk to the dead. I'd be afraid they'd talk back! :laugh: :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JFox1]

I don't talk to the dead. I'd be afraid they'd talk back! :laugh: :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

You never know! HEE HEE HEE!

 

[Eliyahu]

The footnote for I Samuel 28:12 in the New American Bible states, "Human beings cannot communicate at will with the souls of the dead. God may, however, permit a departed soul to appear to the living and even disclose things unknown to them. Saul's own prohibition of necromancy and divination (v 3) was in keeping with the consistent teaching of the Old Testament. If we are to credit the reality of the apparition to Saul, it was due, not to the summons of the witch, but to God's will; the woman merely furnished the occasion."

Bringing Chronicles was very much valuable to this discussion. A good post!
Was it an error of Samuel's own prohibition? I didn't understand that phrase.

I think Prayer to the Dead or Prayer thru the Dead can be refuted very quickly as the acceptance of the Prayer is related to the Omni-Science, Omni-Presence, and eventually Omni-Potence.

But the Prayer for the Dead is another matter which requires another analysis and another approach though we have the prohibition in the Bible ( Psalm 106:28).

As Bob pointed out, only these are some parts of Talking to the Dead which is based on much misunderstanding.

 

[tragic_pizza]

The Bible calls praying to the dead/through the dead, (a matter of semantics) necromancy, a practice soundly condemned in the Bible. Check it out for yourself, instead of throwing about veiled attacks.

Is that all the Bible says about anything at all? Or are there more important matters that Christians should attend to than deciding who among us is not Christian enough?

 

[tragic_pizza]

I don't talk to the dead. I'd be afraid they'd talk back! :laugh: :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

I like your user name.

 

[Eliyahu]

Apparently we should distinguish between 4 concepts:

1) Prayer to the Dead.

2) Prayer thru the Dead


3) Prayer for the Dead

4) Other types of Talking to the Dead.

1), 2) are not possible unless the Dead are Omni-Scient, Omni-Present, eventually Omni-Potent. This means that praying to many of the Dead indicates the people believe in many gods, Polytheism.
For example, if a religion say that Mary is still alive and accept the prayers from all over the world, throughout the ages for 2000 years, for all the matters of the life, then Mary should have had the Almighty Power and Knowledge travelling all around the world, understanding all the troubles of the life and all the technical matters and environmental matters, throughout the years and years.
What would God do while He is watching over the people praying thru Mary? Can He not listen to the people directly? Why do the people pray thru Mary? What if they pray directly to God who is the most merciful and gracious?

But 3)Prayer for the Dead is totally different issue, which may be excused as a kind of Love for the Dead, praying to God for the Dead, which we find no ground in the Bible except the condemnation on it.

As for 4) other types of Talking to the Dead such as Spiritism can be discussed when we have another advocator for it.

All those are different issues, I think.

 

[JFox1]

Bringing Chronicles was very much valuable to this discussion. A good post!
Was it an error of Samuel's own prohibition? I didn't understand that phrase.

I think Prayer to the Dead or Prayer thru the Dead can be refuted very quickly as the acceptance of the Prayer is related to the Omni-Science, Omni-Presence, and eventually Omni-Potence.

But the Prayer for the Dead is another matter which requires another analysis and another approach though we have the prohibition in the Bible ( Psalm 106:28).

As Bob pointed out, only these are some parts of Talking to the Dead which is based on much misunderstanding.

I Samuel 28:3 states that after Samuel died, King Saul removed the mediums from the land. Saul forbade conjuring spirits, but when God didn't answer him, he resorted to the medium.

 

[DHK]

Is that all the Bible says about anything at all? Or are there more important matters that Christians should attend to than deciding who among us is not Christian enough?

What is your problem TP. This thread is not about Christian character. If you want to start one, do so. If you hadn't noticed the title of this thread is Talking to the Dead. It is a form of necromancy.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The consequence of such sins was stoning--death. Necromany was and is talking to the dead.

 

[Eliyahu]

I Samuel 28:3 states that after Samuel died, King Saul removed the mediums from the land. Saul forbade conjuring spirits, but when God didn't answer him, he resorted to the medium.

Good. Well accepted.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

What is your problem TP. This thread is not about Christian character. If you want to start one, do so. If you hadn't noticed the title of this thread is Talking to the Dead. It is a form of necromancy.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The consequence of such sins was stoning--death. Necromany was and is talking to the dead.

And it’s important that you finish out to at least verse 15: … For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
-

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what the Word of God says --

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.[/b]

Here we find that no conjuring of the dead AT ALL is permitted - no summoning the dead - no speaking with - no "consulting" the dead and asking them "for favors" or "help on behalf of the living".

And oh yes - testing EVERYTHING against the Word of God "The LAW and the Testimony" - not merely "popular opinions held by your denominational leaders"

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.

The QUALIFYING term "gaining information" is not used at all in Isaiah 8 -- rather "consulting the dead" is NOT allowed REGARDLESS if it is for the purpose of "gaining information" or simply asking for help "on behalf of the living".

No mention of prophets is used IN the text - but instead we find a DIRECT reference to scripture itself as the RULE for doctrine and practice.

a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now."

Indeed - that is a great example of consulting the dead. In that case it is consulting them for the purpose of gaining their intercessory ministry in your behalf - and I suppose there are a wide variety of ways and reasons to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" as you have indicated - but they are ALL forbidden.

Now let's look at some "added examples "of ways that the RCC has chosen to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" just to make sure we have it all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950


What an amazing way to consult the dead on behalf of the living!!!

And yet -- there is "more" (as impossible as that is to believe)

By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ" (as Paul calls them) –

a prayer to st. Jude.

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/B]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.[/b]
amen.>>

 

[DHK]

And it’s important that you finish out to at least verse 15: … For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
-

If you are going to quote context quote all of it, not only the small little portion that you think makes your point:

Deuteronomy 18:12-14 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

That is the rest of the paragraph. Verse 15 starts another paragraph. Seance is nowhere mentioned, though the practice would be included. You have a very limited interpretation. Talking to the dead is talking to the dead whether it be in "going to a witch" to conjure up the dead, as Saul tried to do, trying to do the same thing through a seance, or simply praying to Mary and other dead people. The cult is called Spiritism. I believe it is the governor general of Quebec who says that she talks to her (now deceased) grandparents on a daily basis. At least she is honest enough to admit that it is spiritism. It is a cult, and yes, part of the occult. Those prayers that you would encourage a little boy to pray to his recently deceased mother at a funeral can easily lead to the occult. It is not so innocent as you make it to be. One is not to pray to the dead; Period!
When one dies their spirit goes to Hell or Heaven. If they are unsaved, it is too late too pray for them. No matter what you do; how much you pray and fast; how many good works you do; there is nothing that you can do to release a person from hell. Praying for a person who has rejected Christ as Saviour is fruitless. His time to decide for Christ was on earth. Now Jesus offers to be your Saviour. After your death he will become your judge.
Now is the day of salvation.

 

[tragic_pizza]

DHK, what I am pointing out is the continual lust around these parts for Catholic-bashing. It's like an obsession. Unhealthy.

On the plus side, at least you are beginning to encourage posting entire passages instead of the Fundamentalist prooftexting game. Kudos.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Indeed - that is a great example of consulting the dead. In that case it is consulting them for the purpose of gaining their intercessory ministry in your behalf - and I suppose there are a wide variety of ways and reasons to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" as you have indicated - but they are ALL forbidden.

Now let's look at some "added examples "of ways that the RCC has chosen to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" just to make sure we have it all.

No Bob, asking for their intercessory is NOT the same as conjuring up spirits for the sole purpose of gaining information. Don't care how you spin it, I ain't gonna buy it. It's not the same...period.

Furthermore, Christ says we Christians are graphed into the vine. You mean when we die, we are then cut off of that vine? I believe we are still connected to those who've passed on.

There's abosolutly no difference than me asking my wife to pray for me, than it is asking a realtive that has passed on to pray for me.
-

 

[BobRyan]

The text speaks against "consulting the dead" you have spun it to "conjuring if it is for the purpose of gaining information" your spin is not possible in the text. The text gives NO qualification at ALL as to WHY one is "consulting the dead" for their help. It merely forbids it.

You argue that consulting the dead for their help is "some ways" is ok but to get "other kinds of help" is wrong. No such qualifiers are found in the text. ALL reasons for "consulting the dead" for their help is said to be wrong.

Period.

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.[/b]



By contrast the prayer to St Jude SHOWS an open ended prayer to the dead - consulting the dead for their help in "request goes here" format.

That is pretty much a glaringly obvious content in the RC example of prayer to the dead.

in Christ,

Bob