Talking to the DEAD

[Eliyahu]

I would appreciate it if you Eliyahu and BR, would pay more attention to what people post on this thread. I bet you failed reading comprehension in school huh?

I bet you failed in the spiritual comprehension and therefore you are still tragic, right?

I stated in my post #81 that Eliyah prayed for the dead, not to the dead!

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18). ​

​

Oh! Dear ! Did you think I thought you claimed the Prayer to the Dead? Haven't you read I and BR pointed out the problem with AD, not with you ? You intervened later. You really have a problem with comprehension, don't you? I know, you have another problem, not that Prayer TO the Dead !

In addition the Catholic faith believes in one God, have you never read the Creeds? Your IGNORANT of both Roman Catholic Theology and Scripture
What a shame...

​

Catholic virtually believe in many gods.That's why they have many to pray to and to pray thru. Catholic is a paganism. They decorate it with the Christian God, but actually they believe in many gods. One of them is Horus, son of Isis, but they decorated it as their god, son of a woman, as if they worship Christ.

Ignorance about the paganism is a great pride. What a shame to follow the paganism !, as even the prayer for the dead is a paganism as well.

 

[Eliyahu]

Tragic!

Could you read the following?

We do see instances in scripture were someone does pray to a dead saint. Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who dies. St. Peter prayed to her when he said: Tabitha, rise. She was dead Bob, dead, and Paul was addressing her…cased closed (Acts 9:36-41).

AD couldn't distinguish between Pray and Command.
Tragic, you must have failed in the comprehension, as you said, right?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I bet you failed in the spiritual comprehension and therefore you are still tragic, right?



Oh! Dear ! Did you think I thought you claimed the Prayer to the Dead? Haven't you read I and BR pointed out the problem with AD ? You really have a problem with comprehension, don't you? I know, you have another problem, not that Prayer TO the Dead !

In addition the Catholic faith believes in one God, have you never read the Creeds? Your IGNORANT of both Roman Catholic Theology and Scripture
[/INDENT]What a shame...
-[/quote]

Catholic virtually believe in many gods. Catholic is a paganism. They decorate it with the Christian God, but actually they believe in many gods. One of them is Horus, son of Isis, but they decorated it as their god, son of a woman, as if they worship Christ.

Ignorance about the paganism is a great pride. What a shame to follow the paganism !, as even the prayer for the dead is a paganism as well.[/QUOTE]
You're just plain silly Eliyahu, I just can't wait to see what outlandish misrepresentation you and others can come up with next...makes coming to the BB that much more enjoyable...
Please start some more threads...I'm bored...

Silly Eliyahu
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[Eliyahu]

And no the Roman Catholic Church is far from the occult, silly DHK…even my hard core ex fundy preacher would stop short of lumping the Catholics in with the JWs, Mormons and SDA’s (sorry Bob…)
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I kindly adivise you not to use the word " silly" though you spewed it to me as well. Before you said it, I mentioned " ignorance" which I believe is within the range of the tolerance, because it is the maximum word which can apply to the actual ignorance.

If you don't realize it, it is a shame to the Catholic advocators.

BTW, Catholic is a biggest cult, which is full of heresies but has succeeded in the business because the human minds are so wicked to follow the deception. It is a biggest shopping mall of heresies where we can buy all sorts of paganism. Your conscience must have taught you already, saying " please get out of there, my friend!"

 

[Eliyahu]

You're just plain silly Eliyahu, I just can't wait to see what outlandish misrepresentation you and others can come up with next...makes coming to the BB that much more enjoyable...
Please start some more threads...I'm bored...

Silly Eliyahu
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You can express your boredness, but it is not nice that you repeat to spew " silly" again and again.

I can call you the same, but your words reveals what kind of religion you have! I warn you that your words have the tendency to return to the mouth of origin. Can you understand?

 

[DHK]

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24)

Where?
1 Kings 17:17-24 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

I don't see Elijah praying to anyone but Jehovah, the Lord God of Israel. Look again at verse 20:

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God,

Is God a dead person? Is this what you are saying Agnus? He is praying to a dead god? Is that your belief? The prayer is directed to God. You decide whether your God is dead or not!

BTW, Paul grants mercy to almost every group of believers that he writes to in every epistle that he writes. With your logic we thus infer that everyone he writes to is dead, just as you infer that Onesiphorus is dead. So are all dead that Paul writes to??

 

[Agnus_Dei]

You can express your boredness, but it is not nice that you repeat to spew " silly" again and again.

I can call you the same, but your words reveals what kind of religion you have! I warn you that your words have the tendency to return to the mouth of origin. Can you understand?

Just so I'm not insensitive to your feelings Eliyahu, do you prefer that I call you 'ignorant' or 'silly', since you were the first to start the name calling.

This is a discussion board, a medium to discuss different doctrines and beliefs and to understand the others point of view, but if its not per your liking and you see yourself not winning the battle, you resort to refering to the other as ignorant of this and that. I refer to you as 'silly', because, the posts are 'silly' Eliyahu.

But if you prefer ignorant...then so be it...
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[Agnus_Dei]

Where?
1 Kings 17:17-24 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

I don't see Elijah praying to anyone but Jehovah, the Lord God of Israel. Look again at verse 20:

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God,

Is God a dead person? Is this what you are saying Agnus? He is praying to a dead god? Is that your belief? The prayer is directed to God. You decide whether your God is dead or not!

BTW, Paul grants mercy to almost every group of believers that he writes to in every epistle that he writes. With your logic we thus infer that everyone he writes to is dead, just as you infer that Onesiphorus is dead. So are all dead that Paul writes to??

DHK what planet are you on? First Elijah asks for the son, whose dead DHK. Elijah cries to the LORD and pray’s to thee (that’s the LORD here DHK) let this child’s soul come into him again

Doesn’t get any clearer to me…Elijah is praying for the DEAD son…For his soul to re-enter him...

Anyway, who started this ‘God being DEAD” silliness?
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[Eliyahu]

Just so I'm not insensitive to your feelings Eliyahu, do you prefer that I call you 'ignorant' or 'silly', since you were the first to start the name calling.

This is a discussion board, a medium to discuss different doctrines and beliefs and to understand the others point of view, but if its not per your liking and you see yourself not winning the battle, you resort to refering to the other as ignorant of this and that. I refer to you as 'silly', because, the posts are 'silly' Eliyahu.

But if you prefer ignorant...then so be it...
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Anyway, you must know what is right, it is up to you. I will return the same to you! because the bad words don't like to stay with me, though they may like you there!

 

[DHK]

A comparison:
Catholics believe in more than one God (basically), for they pray and worship many.
Hindus are also polytheistic, praying and worshiping more than one God.

Catholics believe that holy water washes away their sin. Baptism saves (Baptismal regeneration.
Hindus also believe that holy water washes away their sin, and get baptized in the holy waters of the Ganges River.

Catholics bow down before various images (stations of the cross) and pray before them (idolatry).
Hindus also bow down before their various images and pray before them.

There are still some other comparisons that could be made. But having said that, is it any wonder that Mother Theresa had such good success in India?

 

[Eliyahu]

I think the following applies:

Prayer to the Dead - Polytheism, because only the god can accept the prayers from everywhere of the world, at any time, knowing all the situations, delivering properly to the God of gods.

Prayer for the Dead - Purgatory. Unless there is no conviction on the improvement for the situation of the Dead, what for do they have to pray for the Dead?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

A comparison:
Catholics believe in more than one God (basically), for they pray and worship many.
Hindus are also polytheistic, praying and worshiping more than one God.

That's a blatant lie, cite your sources...

Catholics believe that holy water washes away their sin. Baptism saves (Baptismal regeneration.
Hindus also believe that holy water washes away their sin, and get baptized in the holy waters of the Ganges River.

Baptism regeneration is Biblical and is backed by Early Church Tradition and numerous mainline Protestant Church practice same.

Catholics bow down before various images (stations of the cross) and pray before them (idolatry).
Hindus also bow down before their various images and pray before them.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

In regard to bowing; bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

Get your facts straight...
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[Eliyahu]

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

In regard to bowing; bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

Get your facts straight...
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A typical Idol worshippers' excuse !

Read the Bible Exodus 32:

4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. 6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them:


You are saying like the Idol worshippers of Israelites at the time of Aaron. They called the molten calf " Elohim who brought Israel out of Egypt" Hope you know gods ( Elohim) and God (Elohim) are the same.

Also, RCC are like the Israelites who didn't break the Bronze Snake which was made according to the order of God, as a shadow of Jesus Christ who was going to be hung on the tree. It was not the bronze snake that saved the people, but the FAITH in God as a Redeemer. Therefore keeping it was useless but Israel did it.
Now Catholic repeat the same Idolatry with many idols.

Read Isaiah 42-45. How much foolishness is involved in the Idolatry, but the people worshipping the idols excused all the time throughout the history.

When True Christians kneel down on the knee they don't bow down to the Bible, but to the Only and True God who comes into their hearts. RCC misunderstood here again, maybe thinking that Protestants are worshipping the Earth or the Book-Bible. To the eyes of Idol worshippers everything looks like Idol !

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Also, RCC are like the Israelites who didn't break the Bronze Snake which was made according to the order of God, as a shadow of Jesus Christ who was going to be hung on the tree. It was not the bronze snake that saved the people, but the FAITH in God as a Redeemer. Therefore keeping it was useless but Israel did it.
Now Catholic repeat the same Idolatry with many idols.

And why did they build the Bronze Snake Eliayhu? It was incase a Hebrew was bit by a serpent; they had to look upon it to be healed. This shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

Read Isaiah 42-45. How much foolishness is involved in the Idolatry, but the people worshipping the idols excused all the time throughout the history.

If your implying that Catholics worship idols…you’re wrong, yet another silly redundant comment.

When True Christians kneel down on the knee they don't bow down to the Bible, but to the Only and True God who comes into their hearts. RCC misunderstood here again, maybe thinking that Protestants are worshipping the Earth or the Book-Bible. To the eyes of Idol worshippers everything looks like Idol!

So for a Protestant who kneels with a Bible in front of a wooden cross, it’s OK, b/c they have God on their hearts…

Again…If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but God doesn’t ban the making of images. If God had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
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[Agnus_Dei]

It’s also been alluded to on this thread that the saints in heaven doesn’t have any knowledge of what goes on, on Earth. If so…then why then did Moses and Elijah come back to Earth to talk with Jesus (Mat 17:1-3). Why did saints come out of their tombs after the resurrection, appearing to many (Mat. 27:52-53)? Why does God send two witnesses to Earth during the last days (Rev 11:3-12)?
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[Agnus_Dei]

Interesting enough is that I remembered from the Evangelical book The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, who seems to me any way describe the Catholic Dogma of the Communion of Saints…here's what I found..see what you think…

Your spiritual family is even more important than your physical family because it will last forever. Our families on the earth are wonderful gifts from God, but they are temporary and fragile, often broken by divorce, distance, growing old, and inevitably, death...our spiritual family-our relationship to other believers-will continue throughout eternity. It is a much stronger union, a more permanent bond than blood relationships. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 118, emphasis mine)​

In God's family you are connected to every other believer, and we willl belong to each other for eternity. The Bible says, In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member bleongs to all the others. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 130-31, emphasis mine)​

…interesting
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[DHK]

That's a blatant lie, cite your sources...

My sources are: the Bible, my own Catholic experiences, you, the Catholic encyclopedia and catechism, and multitudes of testimonies of other Catholics.
1. We don't take our definitions from Catholic encyclopedias, catechisms, or dictionaries. That is foundational.
2. We also don't take our definitions from secular dictionaries, otherwise we can just pick the definition we want, for the dictionary lists many--even some that oppose themselves.
3. We take our definitions (of words such as prayer and worship) from the Bible, for the Bible defines these words for us. We compare Scripture with Scripture.
Prayer is worship. Let me repeat lest you didn't understand the first time. Prayer is worship! When one prays to an image, an idol, a dead person, a living person, a nebulous spirit, a tree, or whatever, it is worship. Thus God says: Worship God, and God alone. The meaning is plain--Pray to God and God alone. All that the Catholics pray to (including Mary) are gods. Thus they have many gods. Every "saint" they pray to is a god. They worship that god. They treat it as a god. They are no better than a Hindu in this respect. This is exactly what the Hindus do. Why should we accuse the Hindus of idolatry and excuse the RC's when they do exactly the same thing? Can you give me one good reason? Prayer is worship.

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--That lesson is very instructive, and should be to all Catholics. Prayer is worship.

Baptism regeneration is Biblical and is backed by Early Church Tradition and numerous mainline Protestant Church practice same.

No, baptismal regeneration is not taught in the Bible; it is taught in RCC theology, but not in the Bible. ECF teachings are not infallible either. Baptismal regeneration was one of the earliest heresies to enter into the church, but a heresy nevertheless.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

And some Protestants are wrong in what they do. Don't lump everyone into one boat. I don't have any images of "God" including Jesus in my house, not even a picture.
Isn't it interesting that as I grew up as Catholic I was taught one set of the Ten Commandments (The Sabbath Day was the third one), and after I got saved suddenly the Sabbath Day became the fourth commandment. I began to wonder why the Ten Commandments had changed from when I was a Catholic to after I left Catholicism; why the Catholics have only three commands that deal with man and God, and others have four commands that deal with man and God. Who made the mistake: God or the RCC?
It wasn't hard to find out. Turn to Exodus 20 where they are listed.
As a Catholic I had always learned that the ninth command was:
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. and the 10th
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.

AHA!! but the Bible has these as one command. What then did the Catholics do differently. On close examination I discovered that this command was completely missing:

Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Not one word was said about making graven images, bowing down to them, or any reference at all to this command is mentioned in the Ten Commandments that the RCC taught to its children. How deceptive!! And no wonder! They make graven images all the time, and bow down to them, contrary to what the Ten Commandments declare. How can they teach one thing and do another.

I sometimes wondered in that controversial case about hanging a plaque of the Ten Commandments in an American Courtroom (which eventually was decalred unlawful), if it would have been the Catholic version or the Biblical version. But since most of the American populace is Biblically illiterate, I doubt if anyone would have noticed anyway.

However the facts are plain. You have the stations of the cross in every church. Every year you bow down before them. Every year you pray before them. That is idolatry. That is the same thing that the Hindus do. It is paganism. It is idolatry. When a Catholic enters a church he genuflects before the crucifix at the altar of the church. Again, an act of idolatry; again a graven image found in the Catholic church that is worshiped in some small way. It is revered--bowed down to.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

How would you know since you don't read the Ten Commandments--all of them? Have you ever read them? Do you understand them?

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

What do you think that verse means? Did God put it there for the good of His own health, or yours?

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Hmmm, it seems as if it is for your own good health, doesn't it?
But you ignore it, go on your merry way, and continue to make graven images of God to worship him, or to worship others "as God." Remember, prayer is worship. All that you pray to, you worship as god.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

And every statue that you pray to, you worship as a god.

In regard to bowing; bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Get your facts straight..-

Don't worry; I have my facts right.
Mordecai would not, for any reason, bow down before Haman, for he (Mordecai) was a Jew.
Cornelius was rebuked by Peter when he bowed down before him.
Twice was John rebuked when he bowed down before the angel.
All who bowed down before Jesus were never rebuked, for Jesus, as God, accepted all worship. God alone may be worshiped. Prayer is due only to God. Prayer is worship. Worship God alone. Bow down alone to him.
Instead of following pagan customs it is better if you follow Biblical teachings.

 

[Eliyahu]

And why did they build the Bronze Snake Eliayhu? It was incase a Hebrew was bit by a serpent; they had to look upon it to be healed. This shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

God commanded Moses to make it ( Numbers 21:8-9) Where did God command you to make the image of Mary and Joseph? The Bronze Serpent was the shadow of Jesus Christ. Is the statue of Mary the likeness of Jesus?

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

They thought the Bronze Snake itself had a special power in it as RCC think the Idols have some power, but it was a kind of Idolatry.

If your implying that Catholics worship idols…you’re wrong, yet another silly redundant comment.

You are quite Insane because you are drunken with Idolatry, aren't you?

So for a Protestant who kneels with a Bible in front of a wooden cross, it’s OK, b/c they have God on their hearts…

NOPE, Sir! the True Christians don't do that. You have seen only the Fake Christians, and therefore your eyes are blinded so much, pity! If Jesus was killed by a gunshot, would you hang a gun on the wall, then bow down to it? Maybe, RCC would do it, wouldn't they?

Again…If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but God doesn’t ban the making of images. If God had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
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NO, True Christians don't offer any veneration to the graven things. Is Watching TV an Idolatry? You have become very much insane, drunk with Idolatry.

Read the Bible:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Leviticus 26:1

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Deut 4:16

Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

Deut 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

Deut 27:15
Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

 

[Eliyahu]

Agnus Dei said:

It’s also been alluded to on this thread that the saints in heaven doesn’t have any knowledge of what goes on, on Earth. If so…then why then did Moses and Elijah come back to Earth to talk with Jesus (Mat 17:1-3). Why did saints come out of their tombs after the resurrection, appearing to many (Mat. 27:52-53)? Why does God send two witnesses to Earth during the last days (Rev 11:3-12)?

I already explained you and BR explained you about Elijah and Moses in Matt 17:1-,( Hope you don't have the Altzheimer). Moses and Elijah were brought by Jesus, not by human beings. God can call anyone but human being don't have the power to raise the dead. Moreover, as BR explained well, Elijah didn't die, just ascended alive, Moses may have been resurrected already by God ( this might not be proven clearly), but in any case, both were called by Jesus who has the power of Resurrection. Do you have such power?

As for the saints( Mt 27:52-53), did any disciple call them or pray to them? Only God showed such special miracle at the time of the Death of Christ.

As for Revelation 11:3-12, they are not the dead people. Zechariah 4 tells us who they are:

2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth

2 Candlestick=2 Olive Tree=2 Witnesses = the True Christian Believers all over the world, who do not yield to any Idolatry, any paganism like Roman Catholic, not any specific persons ( NO DEAD person!)

Do you believe that the Dead people are witnessing the Gospel? Then RCC may not have to do anything, let the Dead preach the Gospel! Strange interpretation by Deadmen's Worshippers.

You misunderstood quite a lot because you are drunk with Idolatry, which is a pity.

 

[Eliyahu]

Interesting enough is that I remembered from the Evangelical book The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, who seems to me any way describe the Catholic Dogma of the Communion of Saints…here's what I found..see what you think…

Your spiritual family is even more important than your physical family because it will last forever. Our families on the earth are wonderful gifts from God, but they are temporary and fragile, often broken by divorce, distance, growing old, and inevitably, death...our spiritual family-our relationship to other believers-will continue throughout eternity. It is a much stronger union, a more permanent bond than blood relationships. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 118, emphasis mine)​

In God's family you are connected to every other believer, and we willl belong to each other for eternity. The Bible says, In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member bleongs to all the others. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 130-31, emphasis mine)​

…interesting
-

The whole message can be interpreted in 2 ways.

He could mean the spiritual fellowship among the believers while they are on this earth, living, so that they can have the eternal fellowship after death, which can be True Christians' belief.

The other is the Catholic Communion between the living men and the dead men, which is quite scary pagan, groundless in the Bible.