Talking to the DEAD

[Agnus_Dei]

My sources are...my own Catholic experiences

From some of your post's, I beginning to doubt you were ever a serious devote Catholic...maybe just casual observer.

Prayer is worship. Let me repeat lest you didn't understand the first time. Prayer is worship!

Well DHK, I’ve took it upon myself to do a little research on the word prayer, through all my Sunday school notes as a Fundamentalist and the 3 Methodist Disciple Classes I took and I have yet to discover that prayer equaled to worship as you claim. It’s always in regard to a petition.

Prayer is always mentioned seperate fro worship...prayer and worship service . why seperate the two, if their the same DHK?

I even dug out my old John R. Rice book entitled Prayer, Asking and Receiving and still oddly enough no worship mentioned…

Odd…

No, baptismal regeneration is not taught in the Bible; it is taught in RCC theology, but not in the Bible. ECF teachings are not infallible either. Baptismal regeneration was one of the earliest heresies to enter into the church, but a heresy nevertheless.

So I guess more than half of the mainline Protestant Churches are heretic? Ever thought that maybe, just maybe…DHK is wrong? That’s a thought worth considering…

How would you know since you don't read the Ten Commandments--all of them? Have you ever read them? Do you understand them?

Hmmm, yeah…

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...What do you think that verse means? Did God put it there for the good of His own health, or yours?

I know what it means, but maybe you need to realize that God often instruct His people to make staues and graven images…see the two cherubim of gold (Ex. 25:18-20), see also David’s plan on the temple (1 Chr. 28:18-19), see also the graven (carved) images in the likness of cherubim (Ezekiel 41:17-18), also see the fiery serpent (Num 21:8-9)…well you get the hint…

Hmmm, it seems as if it is for your own good health, doesn't it?
But you ignore it, go on your merry way, and continue to make graven images of God to worship him, or to worship others "as God." Remember, prayer is worship. All that you pray to, you worship as god.

I think you’re wrong about prayer meaning exclusively to worship…
-

 

[Eliyahu]

Agnus,

What will happen if someone chop out the ceramic statue of Mary with an axe? Will Mary get angry? Will Mary get hurt? What would God think about it?
Actually my brother-in-law destroyed it completely with a baseball bat, then he was very much blessed in many ways since then. What would you think about it?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus,

What will happen if someone chop out the ceramic statue of Mary with an axe? Will Mary get angry? Will Mary get hurt? What would God think about it?
Actually my brother-in-law destroyed it completely with a baseball bat, then he was very much blessed in many ways since then. What would you think about it?

Honestly Eliyahu, I think you need to go back to the drawing board…Your questions are absurd and ridicules and really don’t deserve an answer. I mean that in the most sincere way.

You remind me of an atheist I knew while in the Navy. He would out of the blue ask me these redundant questions…’can God make a rock so big He can’t move it…”

Please stop with them…
-

 

[Eliyahu]

Honestly Eliyahu, I think you need to go back to the drawing board…Your questions are absurd and ridicules and really don’t deserve an answer. I mean that in the most sincere way.

You remind me of an atheist I knew while in the Navy. He would out of the blue ask me these redundant questions…’can God make a rock so big He can’t move it…”

Please stop with them…
-

You are quite Devout- Idol Worshipper, I think.

Read the followings:

Isaiah 44:
9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. 10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together. 12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint. 13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house. 14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. 15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. 16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: 17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

Rev 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I am afraid that you will go there unless you repent the idolatry before you die

 

[DHK]

Well DHK, I’ve took it upon myself to do a little research on the word prayer, through all my Sunday school notes as a Fundamentalist and the 3 Methodist Disciple Classes I took and I have yet to discover that prayer equaled to worship as you claim. It’s always in regard to a petition.

In reality you are saying: "I am blind because I want to be blind," but the evidence says otherwise.
Prayer includes: confession, praise, thanksgiving, intercession, petition. Well at least you got one-fifth of it.

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--The above is a prayer, and yet at the same time worship. This is prayer.

More prayer:
Revelation 5:11-14 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
--You still think that prayer is simply asking or petition??

Prayer is always mentioned seperate fro worship...prayer and worship service . why seperate the two, if their the same DHK?

That is not true. It only shows your ignorance of true prayer. Read 1Samuel 1, about Hannah's prayer.

1 Samuel 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
--There was contrition, humility, repentance.

1 Samuel 1:11-13 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head. And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
--Her prayer was very intense. It was a vow. It had great meaning. It was purposeful. It wasn't something to take lightly. She meant every word that she said. But note also it came from the heart. Her lips moved but her voice was not heard. Prayer is from the heart.

1 Samuel 1:17 Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him.
--She was assured that her prayer had been answered.

1 Samuel 2:1-3 And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation. There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
--Where is the petition now? Hannah prays, and the entire prayer is a prayer of rejoicing, a prayer of praise.
One can see in Hannah's life the different areas of prayer. Prayer is worship. She was worshipful in every area of her prayer life, even to the point of bringing sacrifices to the temple. Learn from the life of Hannah. Prayer is worship.

So I guess more than half of the mainline Protestant Churches are heretic? Ever thought that maybe, just maybe…DHK is wrong? That’s a thought worth considering…

You are absolutely right. More than half of the mainline denominations have gone liberal and no longer believe in the fundamentals of the faith. The cults are the same way. They start with a grain truth and end up with widespread heresy. BTW, Baptists are not Protestants. They were before the Reformation, and did not come out of the Reformation.

I know what it means, but maybe you need to realize that God often instruct His people to make staues and graven images…see the two cherubim of gold (Ex. 25:18-20), see also David’s plan on the temple (1 Chr. 28:18-19), see also the graven (carved) images in the likness of cherubim (Ezekiel 41:17-18), also see the fiery serpent (Num 21:8-9)…well you get the hint…

So you take the humanistic rationalism of today and conclude that since God commanded Israel to obey his commands in the construction of the tabernacle and the temple, while he commands you not to make any images in his image; you rationalize and say that God really doesn't know what he is talking about, and since he allowed Israel or even commanded Israel to build both a tabernacle and its furniture (as well as the temple), then you can disobey God and build those things that God has commanded you not to build. It really is odd rationalization. But it is blasphemous rationalization and blatant disobedience to the Lord.

I think you’re wrong about prayer meaning exclusively to worship.

Opinions are not worth a hill of beens. Study your Bible. Go to the psalms and look at the prayers contained therein.
See especially the prayers of Psalms 146-150

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus,

What will happen if someone chop out the ceramic statue of Mary with an axe? Will Mary get angry? Will Mary get hurt? What would God think about it?
Actually my brother-in-law destroyed it completely with a baseball bat, then he was very much blessed in many ways since then. What would you think about it?

Eliyahu: I want to re-visit this question, b/c I want to try and understand your thought process here.

This is a Baptist Board and most if not all Baptist Churches have a Cross centrally located in the Sanctuary, most Baptist Churches have an ‘altar call’ and during the call, many take the KJV’s and approach the altar and kneel in prayer. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t you say that’s wrong? If so, explain yourself.

Now back to the wooden statue of Mary. My mother is as fundamental as they come…basically, if you’re not a fundamental Baptist, your good a dead and hell bound…seriously, she and my father are hard core…the KJV fell from heaven…

Anyway, after my wife had our first child, she bought her a little wooden carved statue of a mother with her baby in her arms. It’s on our mantle; I can see it plain as day. Lets say you walked into my living room and saw it…what would you think?

Now let’s say you walked into my living room and instead of the same statue I pictured above, only now you saw a little wooden statue of Mary holding Christ…what you think?

When I see the statue of the mother and her baby, I reflect and think of the bond that my wife has with all our kids that I will NEVER have. Let’s face it; if you’re a father, we had the fun and easy part. I will never know what it’s like to carry a child in womb and feel it kick and know that I’m it’s every source of life and then to go through labor for hours. Am I worshipping the statue…NO…

The same mindset applies to that same statue of Mary and Christ. I reflect and meditate upon the mysteries of the virgin birth, how the angle came to her and called her ‘blessed’. I think of how blessed she was, how God chose her, to carry His only Son, to care for him, watch over him. I think of how scared she must have been, to know that she wasn’t yet married and what the reaction of her family and Joseph maybe. The night they had to flee, and how scared she was, as a mother wanting to protect her son. I think of how agonizing it must have been to watch her son, be beaten and scourged and nailed to a Cross and how happy and glad the day He rose from the grave.

You see, I’m not worshipping Mary, nor am I worshipping my wife.

Do some Catholics carry this too far, sure they do, even some Baptist carry the KJVO a little too far as well.

But make no mistake, I know that Baptist don’t worship the Cross or the KJV when they approach the altar, for I was a Baptist and I know. Catholics don’t worship any statues, I know this, b/c I’ve been objectively studying the Catholic and Orthodox faiths for almost 4 years now and that’s NOT what Catholics are taught, if so, then they have been poorly catechized.
-

 

[DHK]

But make no mistake, I know that Baptist don’t worship the Cross or the KJV when they approach the altar, for I was a Baptist and I know. Catholics don’t worship any statues, I know this, b/c I’ve been objectively studying the Catholic and Orthodox faiths for almost 4 years now and that’s NOT what Catholics are taught, if so, then they have been poorly catechized.
-

The catechism has nothing to do with it. They are ignorant of the Bible and are not taught it. The catechism teaches contrary to the Bible. You are unable to look at things from a Biblical perspective; only from a Catholic perspective. Just because you see things from a Catholic perspective doesn't make it right. Making an image of "God" is still wrong. I may have a picture of my wife, but I certainly won't have one of God (Jesus).
50 years ago no Baptist church would have their church adorned with a cross.
50 years ago the KJV was never an issue with anyone.
We don't have a sancturary; we have an auditorium, and thus we don't have an altar or an altar call; but we might have an invitation.

 

[BobRyan]

Post 81

We do see instances in scripture were someone does pray to a dead saint.

Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who dies. St. Peter prayed to her when he said: Tabitha, rise. She was dead Bob, dead, and Paul was addressing her…cased closed (Acts 9:36-41).

Christ Himself does the same thing with regard to Lazarus.

Then in post 96 the same Agnus Dei -says

I stated in my post #81 that Eliyah prayed for the dead, not to the dead!

We also see occurrences of those praying for the DEAD. Elijah (1 Kings 17:17-24) and quite arguably, St. Paul again praying for the seemingly dead man Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18).​

Agnus Dei post 81 again --
The Bible tells us that other disciples raised people from the dead. So presumably, they would follow the same model of Jesus, whom prayed to the dead person by addressing them while they were STILL DEAD.

So there are at least two if not more instances of people in the Bible contacting the dead.

These are NOT examples of conjuring dead spirits as we see claimed in 1Sam 28 NOR of holding conversation with the dead NOR of making prayer requests of the DEAD in the form "I emplore you Lazarus PLEASE hear my prayer and grant my request that YOU raise YOURSELF from the dead".

All such bogus story telling does not fit scripture - at all.

The point remains as we compare the pagan practice of praying TO dead ancestors with the bible standard of NOT consulting the dead - NOT praying TO the dead AT ALL!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

Fortunately the protestant Christians can join the Hebrew people of God in saying this practice of consulting the dead (no matter WHICH dead it is) -- should stop.


Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a very clear example of what it means to pray TO the dead --

notice each of the componants of this act of resorting to the dead for "favors".

Quote:

a prayer to st. Jude.
Quote:

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/b]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.[/b]
amen.>>

Now let us imagine for a second that it was VALID to equivocate between this aggregious consultation of the dead -- and the NT and OT examples of the LIVING given power to RAISE the dead!!

Suppose Christ's prayer to the FATHER in John 11 were to be a prayer TO LAZARUS instead.

"Lazarus I emplore YOU to hear my prayer and answer me. GRANT that you would raise YOURSELF in answer to my earnest prayer. IF you would just do this for me - I will be forever grateful TO You and will encourage others to DEVOTION to YOU"

Of course you can only "imagine it" since this kind of thing is not found in ALL of scripture - no not even ONCE!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When Hindus place a little plastic picture on their dashboard representing a certain god - they do not claim that the "plastic IS god" rather they claim it is a reminder - a representation of their god.

So the Catholic Digest article is correct that these are replaced in the RC form of ancestor worship where a different set of the dead are prayed to instead of the pagan ancestors.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The catechism has nothing to do with it. They are ignorant of the Bible and are not taught it.

Another Lie, Catholics are taught the Bible, for I'm in RCIA and the theological Bible study is far superior than that of any Protestant Bible study I've ever attended. We all have our Bibles and read them every meeting. More Scripture is read during Mass than any Baptist service I've every been in and not to mention prayer.

The catechism teaches contrary to the Bible.

The catechism is chock full of scripture references and ECF's as a supplement.

You are unable to look at things from a Biblical perspective; only from a Catholic perspective. Just because you see things from a Catholic perspective doesn't make it right.

Just because you 'think' you see things from a pure 'biblical perspective' that 'perspective' is still influenced by your own preconceived traditions, which is totally unsupported by Church History.

50 years ago no Baptist church would have their church adorned with a cross.
50 years ago the KJV was never an issue with anyone.
We don't have a sancturary; we have an auditorium, and thus we don't have an altar or an altar call; but we might have an invitation.

And just what Baptist sect are you apart of?
-

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu: I want to re-visit this question, b/c I want to try and understand your thought process here.

This is a Baptist Board and most if not all Baptist Churches have a Cross centrally located in the Sanctuary, most Baptist Churches have an ‘altar call’ and during the call, many take the KJV’s and approach the altar and kneel in prayer. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t you say that’s wrong? If so, explain yourself.

I have not seen anything like that in my life. I visited a Baptist church and found nothing like that. I visited Menonite and found nothing like that.
We have a simple table for preaching 1.5 feet higher than the pews, behind it, some churches have the Bath for Baptism, some do not. We have NO Cross at all, neither inside the building nor outside, nor on top of the building. I explained to you. If Jesus was shot to death by a gun, would you hang a gun on the wall then worship it? Everyone must be busy with worshipping the guns, right?

Now back to the wooden statue of Mary. My mother is as fundamental as they come…basically, if you’re not a fundamental Baptist, your good a dead and hell bound…seriously, she and my father are hard core…the KJV fell from heaven…

Anyway, after my wife had our first child, she bought her a little wooden carved statue of a mother with her baby in her arms. It’s on our mantle; I can see it plain as day. Lets say you walked into my living room and saw it…what would you think?

If it was not intended for Mary worship, it could have become a novelty, which cannot be a problem. However, most of that type of sculpture or statues were originated from Catholicism. Why does it have such layout as Mary and her son Jesus?
Moreover, look at this site, see the photos, the layout of Mary and Jesus is not a new thing but common in paganism, such as Horus and Isis.

http://www.zulunation.com/RELIGIONS.html

What for do you have and keep such thing? Is it needed for the living ?

Now let’s say you walked into my living room and instead of the same statue I pictured above, only now you saw a little wooden statue of Mary holding Christ…what you think?

How do you know the shape of the statue is the appearance of Mary, how do you know it is the appearance of Christ, instead of any pagan worshipper or cruel woman and her son? That's why God forbade any images for anyone.

When I see the statue of the mother and her baby, I reflect and think of the bond that my wife has with all our kids that I will NEVER have. Let’s face it; if you’re a father, we had the fun and easy part. I will never know what it’s like to carry a child in womb and feel it kick and know that I’m it’s every source of life and then to go through labor for hours. Am I worshipping the statue…NO…

But you attach the concept of Jesus and Mary to the statue, don't you?
That's why you cannot chop it out, right?
Can you not understand such without the statue?
Why do you need any statue to understand the pain of the woman ?
Do you need the pictures and photos for all the Biblical events? I told you that I hope you have not Altzheimer. You don't have any mental problem, do you?

The same mindset applies to that same statue of Mary and Christ. I reflect and meditate upon the mysteries of the virgin birth, how the angle came to her and called her ‘blessed’. I think of how blessed she was, how God chose her, to carry His only Son, to care for him, watch over him. I think of how scared she must have been, to know that she wasn’t yet married and what the reaction of her family and Joseph maybe. The night they had to flee, and how scared she was, as a mother wanting to protect her son. I think of how agonizing it must have been to watch her son, be beaten and scourged and nailed to a Cross and how happy and glad the day He rose from the grave.

The Holy Spirit was with her and therefore you don't have to worry about her, but follow the Holy Spirit. Actually when Jesus was scourged, He was alone, I think. Most of the disciples were scattered, as Bible said ( Zech 13:6-8 and Matt 27)

You see, I’m not worshipping Mary, nor am I worshipping my wife.

But you pray to Mary, don't you? Mary may be accepting the prayers from Brazil while you pray to her. She may be very busy throughout the years and centuries, right?

I know you don't worship your wife, though you may do it after her death because you believe her capacity will be exploded to be Omni-Scient and Omni-Present, and therefore you will pray to your wife after death if she is canonized by Pope.

Do some Catholics carry this too far, sure they do, even some Baptist carry the KJVO a little too far as well.

I am not KJVO though I believe KJV is better than any other versions in English

But make no mistake, I know that Baptist don’t worship the Cross or the KJV when they approach the altar, for I was a Baptist and I know. Catholics don’t worship any statues, I know this, b/c I’ve been objectively studying the Catholic and Orthodox faiths for almost 4 years now and that’s NOT what Catholics are taught, if so, then they have been poorly catechized.
-

We don't have any altar inside the church. The altar was established at Calvary, where Jesus was crucified. You were not a True Baptist, but a superficial and surface baptist and therefore you don't know the Bible truth. Have ever read thru the whole Bible from Genesis to REvelation? There are so many verses which convict the idol worshippers of their sins.

 

[DHK]

Another Lie, Catholics are taught the Bible, for I'm in RCIA and the theological Bible study is far superior than that of any Protestant Bible study I've ever attended. We all have our Bibles and read them every meeting. More Scripture is read during Mass than any Baptist service I've every been in and not to mention prayer.

No, I am not lying. I was never taught the Bible while in the Catholic Church, and to this day the Bible is not taught in the Catholic Church. My parents and other members of my extended family who are still Catholics are Biblically ignorant. My neighbor is Catholic and knows nothing of the Word of God. I do door to door evangelization. More than half the population is Catholic. I have never met a Catholic yet who has much knowledge of the Bible. The only time that I have is on this board. I even came across a house where some "brothers" were staying. They were unable to asnwer some basic questions from the Bible. Don't tell me that the Bible is taught in the Catholic Church. It is not, has never been taught. Historically the Bible has been kept from the common person, and the Bible has been burned in order to keep it away from the common person. The RCC hates to see the common person have the Bible. That is historical truth.
BTW, just because a portion of Scripture is read during the mass doesn't mean that the Bible is taught.

The catechism is chock full of scripture references and ECF's as a supplement.

Sure, and how many Catholics seriuosly take the whole thing and study it, along with all the writings of the ECF's. You really have me laughing now. I doubt if your seminarians go that far.

Just because you 'think' you see things from a pure 'biblical perspective' that 'perspective' is still influenced by your own preconceived traditions, which is totally unsupported by Church History.

After I got saved, the only pre-conceived ideas I had were those that I learned as a Catholic. For two years I studied the Bible on my own. As I studied the Bible I came to realize how contradictory the Catholic doctrine that I had been taught all my life was to the Bible. I knew I had to make a decision: follow God or follow the false teachings of the RCC. I chose God. I had no preconceived traditions that could influence me. I had only known Catholicism up to that point.

And just what Baptist sect are you apart of?

I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

 

[BobRyan]

All - may I suggest that we not focus on all the errors in the RCC for this thread? (But if you want to start an RCC thread I am more than happy to join it in discussion).

I would like to focus on the topic of those who argue in favor of communicating with the DEAD.

On that subject - Agnus could find no Bible examples of communion iwth the dead as in the case of 1Sam 28 as approved of in scripture. No praying TO the dead - no conjuring the dead - no asking the dead for FAVORS (as we see in the prayer to St Jude).

No example of Christ praying TO Lazarus seeking a favor from him as we see in the DETAILS of the prayer to St. Jude.

Nothing!

However on a SIDE point Agnus observed that a prayer TO GOD that is FOR a dead person - specifically for having the DEAD raised to LIFE, can be found in scripture. For that and that ALONE we do find good support in scripture.


But that is NOTHING like the fabrication of purgatory and it is NOTHING like praying TO the dead that we find in the prayer to St Jude.

The Catholic Digest article appears to be correct when it states that this is a Catholic practice that is the new form of praying to pagan family gods.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On the subject of Prayer TO the dead being worship -

this is exactly how pagans worship their falst gods. A little candle burning, a little incense, a prayer TO the pagan god of their choice using objects and artifacts that REPRESNT the lesser gods that they pray to --

Period.

 

[BobRyan]

Here we see Mary treated as a lesser god both in prayers TO the dead Mary and in statements ABOUT her -

The goddess Mary in the RCC as CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25
[/quote]


In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]). [/i

 

[BobRyan]

Some of our Catholic brethren have argued that "you never find us worshipping Mary".

Let us put that to the test with a sample prayer that WE INVENT as applying to both Christ and Mary –

A fictional prayer to Jesus AS GOD –

"Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we your devoted servants are Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and yet impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, AND into the arms of Mary. Oh Immaculate Savior and our heavenly Father....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Ruler of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueror of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. To Christ and to Mary we make appeal that you Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.


In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven,[/b] may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Christ. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people."


(-- No reference given for this example BECAUSE this text includes Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ --

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory to Christ also applies in some way to Mary and so non-Catholics would take this as an example of gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However the truth is that the prayer above is merely an EDITED version of an actual prayer authored by the Papacy itself.

To “correct” the quote – we merely REMOVE ALL references to Christ!! Then insert Mary in the place of Christ in this example!

 

[BobRyan]

Well Eliyahu, for your information Catholicism isn’t the only ones that ask our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession. Eastern Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians and even some Anglicans all practice this practices, which means that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth.

True and false.

#1. True in that Agnus is correct - other groups do pray to the DEAD.

#2. False in the "numbering" since the way those churches number their members is by counting the infant baptisms - so that many Lutherans, Baptists etc are counted as Catholic still to this day - since they were baptized as infants in the RCC.

So "their numbers game" is a bit misleading.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Agnus -
In addition Eliyahu you are majorly confused concerning those brothers and sisters in Christ that have passed on. You seem to suggest that they are dead…again the Word of God

John 11:26 Jesus says: ...and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Hmmm…all this talk of “praying to the Dead, when those of whom we are speaking of aren’t even dead!

#1. In John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS IS DEAD"

You are in gross error sir.


#2. you seek to avoid the problem of Isaiah 8:20 that FORBIDS communion with the dead (that you reword as communion of saints) - by saying that dead people are really not dead.

in that case WHAT GROUP is Isaiah 8 speaking of? The dead or the living??

Agnus said -

Luke 20:38 Jesus says again, Now He is not God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to Him. Now, if God is not the God of the dead, and if the saints are no longer living, then God is no longer their God? When you die, will God cease to be your God Eliyahu?

You are right!! And also wrong!! (as usual mixing both!!)

In Luke 20 as in Matt 22 - Christ is speaking specifically of the OT saints Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at a time when they are DEAD.

Christ INSISTS that it is true that "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" and then He points out that God is ALSO correct when speaking to Moses in saying "I AM the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" BECAUSE of the fact of the resurrection.

In Luk 20 and Matt 22 Christ is arguing that the resurrection is what makes that statement to Moses TRUE - for apart from the resurrection "solution" God is NOT the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

This was Christ's argument with the Sadducees PROVING by their own scripture that there HAS to be a resurrection!

This of course DESTROYS your entire argument for Christ is arguing the PREMISE that God is NOT the God of the dead if you do not take the resurrection into account!!

In Christ,

Bob