Talking to the DEAD

[BobRyan]

Some were sickly, sickly in the body, not in the soul. Many slept--that is they were dead, dead in the body, not in the soul. The soul is immortal, living on throughout eternity. Paul spoke strictly about the body here as the context verifies. He says nothing about the soul.

Too bad those are not Bible quotes... For your sayings above are the only form we find those doctrines in -- not in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We must define and confirm what is soul in such case.
Soul is the part of human being which can feel the pain, sorrrow, can praise God, identify the people etc.

Body is rotten away. When we are resurrected, we will not have the bodies which we have now, but will have new bodies as we read 1 Cor 15.

When Jesus comes again, He will bring the souls sleeping in Him, not the body because the bodies are already rotten.

Just as we see in 1Thess 4.

When the SOUL is being used in the sense of the PERSON who is in the dormant state (the body is DUST - ashes scattered to the wind) -

And so in 2Cor 5 speaking of WHEN we receive our IMMORTAL body (1Cor 15) made in the heavens for us -- it is at that 1Thess 4 point of resurrection!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Double Post

 

[Eliyahu]

Double Post!

 

[Eliyahu]

As the title itself is very much bizarre, everyone sounds like speaking in different tongues. There might be different concepts from the beginning there.

1. Body
Body - This includes the brain cells which make Thinking
This dies and gets rotten in the soil.
We know this will not be recovered after resurrection, though we know several cases of resurrection which brought the same body.

2 Cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I hope everyone agrees that Paul is talking about the Body here, not the house.

Now the body which we will have after the resurrection may be different from the current body, and it will be a new body. However I believe that there will be a certain linkage between the future body and the current body of this world. The new Body will reflect the previous body but they are different each other.

1 Cor 15:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment( No chance of Purgatory), in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


We remember the body of Jesus after resurrection could pass thru the door, likewise our new bodies will be changed to a new form.
We will not be resurrected with our old bodies of this world, but with new bodies.

If our bodies are getting rotten, we cannot say they are sleeping, but their souls are sleeping. Sleeping doesn't mean that it dies, but sleeping means that it is still alive but dormant. The old body will be gone forever.

2. Soul

This part of human being is not visible, but has tremendous function. In my childhood my thinking was rebellious, which I have no more. My belief was changed since my childhood. These are the functions of the soul.
When God created Adam, He breathed the life into his nose, then he became a living soul ( Gen 2:7). so, the soul is the main part of the human being for the identification. When Abraham came out of Haran into Canaan, he brought the souls that he and Sarah had gotten in Haran ( Both were soul winners by preaching the primitive Gospel there!) ( Gen 12:5) It doesn't mean that they took only the souls of the people, but it means that they brought the souls, bodies, and spirits of theirs.
When Jacob came down to Egypt, 70-75 souls went down there ( Acts 7:14, Exodus 1:5)- It doesn't mean that they left their bodies in Canaan and took only the souls into Egypt. Their souls, their Spirits, their bodies went to Egypt all together.

Therefore, the claim by Bob saying that Ezekiel mentioned the soul which committed the sins shall die and, therefore the soul shall cease to exist is a wrong conclusion as Ezekiel was talking about the whole persons.
Often the word, Soul, indicated the whole persons in the Bible, because Soul is the main part which feel, judge, think, accept, love, hate, by using the hardware- Body.
When someone dies, it can also mean that the soul dies, but in detail it means that the soul will go into the state of being dormant. Likewise when the Bible says someone sleeps, it means that his/her soul sleeps because the soul is is main identification as we read in the case of Adam, Abraham, Jacob and his children. The souls will sleep, otherwise, they will be sick and tired of pains and sorrows.

The souls which believed in Jesus and thereby have the Spirit of Christ will sleep in Jesus and will be brought by Him when He comes back to the world. They will have new bodies. ( 1 Thess 4:13-15). The souls are immortal and will remember even in the future life what they did in the past life unless God erased their memory.

3. Spirit

In my childhood, I was the same person as I am now.
The fundamental part of the person is the Spirit. The Spirit was broken out when the sin entered the world. The Spirit was the tool to communicate with God, but it started to malfunction when the sin entered the world. However, when we accept the Lord Jesus and are born-again by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is occupied by the Spirit of Christ and cries Abba Father ( Romans 8:15, 8:9-10, 10:9-). When we are full of Holy Spirit, our souls are closely linked with the Spirit and obey to the Spirit. When we follow the desire and passion of the flesh, our souls will commit the sins ( Galatian 5:19). Therefore we must walk in the Spirit ( Gal 5:16) Our souls must follow spirit. The Spirit is the main part which praise God and can receive the teachings by the Holy Spirit. I do understand that there is a controversy about whether the animals have the spirit but I believe that the animals don't have the spirit as the human beings.
My Soul was changed since my childhood, but my spirit has never changed except it has received the Holy Spirit when I was born again.
Soul can be attached to the flesh but also to the spirit. When the soul obey the Spirit we will bear the good fruits. These are explained in 1 Cor 1-2 and Romans.

Some bibles are confused between Souls and Spirits, but KJV clearly distinguished between Soul and Spirit as far as I know.

Now therefore, I believe the followings:

1) Souls are sleeping after death
2) Bodies will get rotten and disappear, though there will be linkage between the next body and the current body of this world
3) Souls are immortal, bodies are mortal
4) Spirit is immortal and connected with the Holy Spirit in case of born-again believer
5) The souls will be brought by Jesus christ when He comes back.
6) Speaking to the Dead means speaking to the sleeping, which will only bother the sleeping soul, which is nonsense according to the Bible.
7) Sleeping person doesn't speak to the person alive.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu says:
.

Actually, baptism by sprinkling came about because of the scarcity of water in some regions. We first read about it in The Didache, written between 50 A.D. and 120 A.D. This writing was lost until 1873 but we knew it existed because it was referenced in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, first by Eusebius in 324 A.D. Here is Chapter 7 of The Didache, also known as "The Lord's Teaching through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations":

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

If the writing dates back to 50-120 AD indeed, it must be sensational.
The oldest NT manuscripts doesn't go back to that ancient time. Even p66 goes back to 150 AD. But in case of many NT manuscripts they are supported by another manuscripts. If you want to claim the authenticity of the didache, you may have to present several things, where the documents were found, who has preserved them, where are they now, how many copies of the same support it, what are the real contents of it etc.
I don't know which documents you are talking about. Often Didache's are right or wrong! Even today, many people create new fables saying that the statues of Mary is bleeding the blood from the eyes of the statues. Eusebius and Origen are often understood as the people who modified the Bible for their needs. They could do any manipulation to suite their doctrines if that is true.

In Bible, we can not find any allusion or teaching which indicate the Baptism by sprinkling.
Where did John the Baptist bring the idea of Baptism? He suddenly started the Baptism. Where was it originated from?

It was from Rahats ( Rachats) in Leviticus 14:8. We were sinners and dirty like Lepers, but were saved. Then we were supposed to clean out the whole body after we are healed from the disease. As Calvin who claimed the sprinkling is OK indicated, the Flood at the time of Noah meant the Baptism for the whole world. It was the Baptism for the Noah's family too.
The Ark floated on top of the Death, which symbolizes that the Church was travelling on top of the Death of Christ. Here again we see the total immersion for the death.

Some misunderstand that there was a practice of sprinkling even in OT like Number 8:7 which says Sprinkling the Water of Purification.
We must understand that the Water of Purifying is not meaning the Baptism, but the Cross, because as we learn from the Red-Heifer case, the Water of Purifying was the water mixed with ashes after burning the sinless, spotless Red Heifer without blemish outside the camp as Jesus suffered outside the city. After burning the Red Heifer, the Ashes were preserved for the purification of the sins ( Number 19:9-10). Whenever the people had problems with sins, the ash water was sprinkled unto them. Thereafter those sinners took the bathe in the water by immersion ( Rahats). This is quite common sense. Otherwise, the sinners had to remain covered with ashes on the heads, bodies, on clothes etc. They took the bathe by immersion.

If one cannot be immersed, he or she can live without Baptism, but still can go to the Heaven! We know the Robber at the Cross was not baptized but went to the Paradise. Someone in the desert tried to be baptized with the sands by covering the whole body with the sand, but I think in that case one should not do so as the Water has the meaning of Words of God with the power of cleansing. God will give them the chance for them to be baptised properly with the water. If God doesn't provide the chance, don't create any human method!

In Bible we can find only the Baptism by total immersion, even the Truly Born-Again Believers' Baptism, not the Non-believers baptism.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no text saying we have an immortal soul or spirit -- and I think we all agree.

But we do find that the person is in a sleeping state during the first death - where the person's body is dust and the soul is dormant or the spirit has gone back to God who gave it - it is in a dormant state waiting to be once again united to a body.

The spirit is how the PERSON is preserved in death - the SOUL is not destroyed in truth until the spirit does perish.

In Ezek 18:4 we are told "The SOUL that sin it shall DIE" speaking of the SECOND death where "both body AND SOUL are DESTROYED in hell fire".

Basically I agree with your statements about what is happening - I just dont label the soul or spirit as "immortal soul" or "immortal spirit" since thse terms are never used in scripture and to the contrary we have texts saying the "SOUL that sins it shall die".

But as you have pointed out - the death mentioned there is no the FIRST death -- in that case the soul is dormant waiting for the resurrection.

 

[Eliyahu]

There is no text saying we have an immortal soul or spirit -- and I think we all agree.

But we do find that the person is in a sleeping state during the first death - where the person's body is dust and the soul is dormant or the spirit has gone back to God who gave it - it is in a dormant state waiting to be once again united to a body.

The spirit is how the PERSON is preserved in death - the SOUL is not destroyed in truth until the spirit does perish.

In Ezek 18:4 we are told "The SOUL that sin it shall DIE" speaking of the SECOND death where "both body AND SOUL are DESTROYED in hell fire".

Basically I agree with your statements about what is happening - I just dont label the soul or spirit as "immortal soul" or "immortal spirit" since thse terms are never used in scripture and to the contrary we have texts saying the "SOUL that sins it shall die".

But as you have pointed out - the death mentioned there is no the FIRST death -- in that case the soul is dormant waiting for the resurrection.

Not the direct statements but there are plenty of statements such as the Rev 20: 4 souls of them that were beheaded - These will live forever!

I told you Ezekiel 18:4 used the soul representing the person, because we cannot represent a person by a body nor by spirit which may sound like a ghost.
Souls live forever, otherwise, there is no Eternal Life.
It is disappointing to me that you don't know such fundamental truth.

Sleeping people means Souls Sleep. Otherwise, if it meant the Body Sleep, it means the physical sleep for 7-8 hours per day. Therefore, Sleeping meant for the Dead means the Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep means that the Soul doesn't die as Sleeping is a phenomenon of a living person. So, Soul is immortal. Am I clear?

 

[DHK]

There is no text saying we have an immortal soul or spirit -- and I think we all agree.

No we don't all agree. Most of us agree that you fail to believe the Bible on this point. Christ promises us eternal life, not eternal, and then lose eternal by putting us into a dormant state, and then once again give us eternal life. What foolishness is this! What a denial of Scripture is this! It denies the very words of Christ "eternal life," and makes Christ a liar, saying that he gives us only temporary life and not eternal. Eternal means forever and ever, not just temporary. I suggest you look the word up in the dictionary.

But we do find that the person is in a sleeping state during the first death - where the person's body is dust and the soul is dormant or the spirit has gone back to God who gave it - it is in a dormant state waiting to be once again united to a body.

More doctrinal error. Sleep, when connected to death, always refers to the physcial body and never the soul.
1Cor. 11:30--"and many of you sleep." Many of them were dead--physically dead. That was God's judgement upon them. God did not send their souls to purgatory as Bob would have us to believe. He reads into Scripture things that are not there. There is no mention of purgatory, just as there is no mention of soul sleep. We must take the Scripture at face value. It says sleep--physical, death, just as the other judgements were physical: weakly, sick--These do not involve the soul but only the body. "Some of you sleep." Some of you are dead; not the soul, but the body.

John 11--Jesus said Lazarus is dead. Jesus said Lazarus sleeps. He said both. He did not say a word about his soul. He was speaking of his physcial death. Sleep means physical death. Martha knew he was speaking of physical death when she replied "I know that he (his body) shall rise again in the last day." It wasn't his soul she was referring to, but his body. Lazarus slept. He was dead physically. That is what the term sleep refers to.

Now consider what it means in 1Cor.15:
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This entire passage is speaking of the resurrection. But the resurrection always refers to the body (not the soul), unless you don't believe in the resurrection, like the J.W.'s and simply call it a "spirit resurrection." Was it a bodily resurrection or a spirit resurrection that happened with Jesus? There is no such thing as a "spirit resurrection." The concept doesn't even make sense. It is a plain denial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But here it refers to our resurrection, and our resurrection bodies. We shall all be changed. What will the change be? The change will be in our bodies, of course. Our spirits are already alive, living, and immortal. At the last trump the dead (bodies) shall be raised and mortality shall put on immortality. Our immortal spirit will final receive its immortal body, which was before that time mortal. That mortal body will now become immortal as our spirit. We are immortal beings, only now clothed in an earthly mortal body (see 2Cor.5:1-8).
The resurrection always refers to the body. It never refers to the soul or spirit.

The spirit is how the PERSON is preserved in death - the SOUL is not destroyed in truth until the spirit does perish.

You are very much confused. As David Cloud pointed out, the cults use a keyhole method of interpretation. They take one definiton and force it into every context where the word is used. But this is not the case. The context itself often determines the meaning of a word, as a word may have more than one meaning. the word "soul" is one such word. In Genesis one, the Hebrew word "nephesh" usually translated "soul" is used twice to define animals. Thus we learn that animals have souls. Will there be animals in heaven, therefore? Is the soul of an animal dormant awaiting the resurrection according to your theology. But animals do have souls according to Genesis one.
Nephesh also means "breath."
Context alone determines the meaning of the word.
The soul that sinneth it shall die. Will the soul die, and the body live? I think not! The soul here refers to the entire person.
We find soul and spirit sometimes used interchangeably in the NT. just as in this conversation some of us use the words interchangeably.

In Ezek 18:4 we are told "The SOUL that sin it shall DIE" speaking of the SECOND death where "both body AND SOUL are DESTROYED in hell fire".

Your interpretation is way off base. Ezekiel is speaking of the consequence of sin in this life. The consequence of sin is death. The wages of sin is death. The person who sins shall die. You are reading into that verse something that isn't there. There is that "keyhole" method of interpretation again.

Basically I agree with your statements about what is happening - I just dont label the soul or spirit as "immortal soul" or "immortal spirit" since thse terms are never used in scripture and to the contrary we have texts saying the "SOUL that sins it shall die".

They are never used as immortal in Scripture according to you, only because you don't want to see them used in Scripture that way. When a person calls green grass, purple; that doesn't change the color of the grass just because he says it is purple. The grass is still green. You can rant and rave that the immortality of the soul or spirit is not in the Bible. But the teaching is there, no matter how much you choose to disbelieve it. That is your choice.

But as you have pointed out - the death mentioned there is no the FIRST death -- in that case the soul is dormant waiting for the resurrection.

When one is absent from the body he is present with the Lord. You are confused and brainwashed with a false doctrine. There is no such thing as a dormant soul (or spirit). We (at death) await either Hell or heaven, pending our decision to trust Christ or reject him.

 

[BobRyan]

2. Soul

This part of human being is not visible, but has tremendous function. In my childhood my thinking was rebellious, which I have no more. My belief was changed since my childhood. These are the functions of the soul.
When God created Adam, He breathed the life into his nose, then he became a living soul ( Gen 2:7). so, the soul is the main part of the human being for the identification. When Abraham came out of Haran into Canaan, he brought the souls that he and Sarah had gotten in Haran ( Both were soul winners by preaching the primitive Gospel there!) ( Gen 12:5) It doesn't mean that they took only the souls of the people, but it means that they brought the souls, bodies, and spirits of theirs.

So far so good -- the soul IS the "person".

When Jacob came down to Egypt, 70-75 souls went down there ( Acts 7:14, Exodus 1:5)- It doesn't mean that they left their bodies in Canaan and took only the souls into Egypt. Their souls, their Spirits, their bodies went to Egypt all together.

Indeed in that context it is the "entire person both body and spirit"

Therefore, the claim by Bob saying that Ezekiel mentioned the soul which committed the sins shall die and, therefore the soul shall cease to exist is a wrong conclusion as Ezekiel was talking about the whole persons.
Often the word, Soul, indicated the whole persons in the Bible, because Soul is the main part which feel, judge, think, accept, love, hate, by using the hardware- Body.

While it is true that it often means the WHOLE person -- there are other cases as is Ezek 18 "The SOUL that sins IT shall die" and Matt 10:28 "DESTROY both Body AND SOUL" where it is specifically a reference to the "person" dying the SECOND death.

This MUST be the case since we already know that BOTH wicked AND righteous "persons" die the first death. To apply this to the FIRST death in Ezek 18 would be to pre-suppose that only the wicked get old and die in this life.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
There is no text saying we have an immortal soul or spirit -- and I think we all agree.

DHK

No we don't all agree. Most of us agree that you fail to believe the Bible on this point...

That would have been the PERFECT place to put your quote from the Bible that SAYS "man is an IMMORTAL SOUL" or that SAYS "man has IMMORTAL SPIRIT".

The fact that you keep CLAIMING this exists without actually SHOWING it -- is instructive for the objective reader.

Bob said
Basically I agree with your statements about what is happening - I just dont label the soul or spirit as "immortal soul" or "immortal spirit" since thse terms are never used in scripture and to the contrary we have texts saying the "SOUL that sins it shall die".

DHK said
They are never used as immortal in Scripture according to you, only because you don't want to see them used in Scripture that way.

Yet ANOTHER PERFECT place to put your quote from the Bible that SAYS "man is an IMMORTAL SOUL" or that SAYS "man has IMMORTAL SPIRIT".

The fact that you keep CLAIMING this exists without actually SHOWING it -- is instructive for the objective reader.

Christ promises us eternal life

At least we agree on that PROMISE

, not eternal, and then lose eternal by putting us into a dormant state,

Christ said that "GOD IS NOT the God of the dead" in Matt 22.

I believe him sir.

Now it is your turn.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eliyahu
But we do find that the person is in a sleeping state during the first death - where the person's body is dust and the soul is dormant or the spirit has gone back to God who gave it - it is in a dormant state waiting to be once again united to a body.

DHK
More doctrinal error. Sleep, when connected to death, always refers to the physcial body and never the soul.
1Cor. 11:30--"and many of you sleep."

You have once again unwittingly debunked your own argument. Paul is not "writing to a group of dead bodies" in 1Cor 11 but to PEOPLE living PEOPLE not just to the BODIES of living people.

"Many of YOU SLEEP" is a reference to PEOPLE not to dead fingers.

It is the same as we find in 1Thess 4 "concerning THOSE WHO SLEEP" not "Those who have bodies that ARE asleep".

The same as 1Cor 15 "WE shall not ALL SLEEP but WE shall all be changed" it does not use the DHK doctrine "WE shall not ALL have fingers or toes that SLEEP but OUR toes shall all be changed!" it is not something they HAVE that sleeps it is the PERSON that is ALWAYS said to SLEEP.

Obviously.

In fact - incredibly obvious that the Bible is not using the DHK form of refrence to "BODY of the PERSON" for "sleep". Rather it is always and consistently the ENTIRE person!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
The soul that sinneth it shall die. Will the soul die, and the body live? I think not! The soul here refers to the entire person.
We find soul and spirit sometimes used interchangeably in the NT. just as in this conversation some of us use the words interchangeably.

Credit where credit it due.

Every once in a while DHK says something that is actually true. That is one case -- I try to point it out when it happens.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
When one is absent from the body he is present with the Lord. You are confused and brainwashed with a false doctrine.

Once again your empty ranting has not served you well. In fact once again it has resulted in you unwittingly debunking your own position. For once again you provide a bold statement (your own statement bolded and underlined to help you see the point) - where you make a statement NOT found in ALL of scripture -- "no not even once" and you make a statement that IF TRUE would mean that ALL the wicked are "present with the Lord at death" in a way that you "presumably" mean to imply saved by your use of the term "WITH THE LORD".

Less emotion DHK - more fact please.

In Christ,

bob

 

[Eliyahu]

On this issue of Soul Sleep, DHK, BR, Eli are speaking to the Dead indeed!

As for 1 Cor 11:30,

We have to remember this:

Many fall asleep doesn't mean that many are dying now, but that many are asleep now. In other words, as a result of abusing the Lord's Supper, many people were dead already and thereby they are sleeping. Koimowntai is not action, but a status, the status of sleeping, though it is Present Passive.

Sleeping doesn't mean the Bodily Sleeping which was mentioned by Thomas when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping. I sleep over 7 hours per day, which is Body Sleep. If I die, I will sleep, which is Soul Sleep, but will be waken up when the Lord Jeus comes, which means my soul will wake up with another Body. This is not too difficult.

 

[Eliyahu]

I confirmed that the Soul Sleep was the belief of the most Anabaptists.

Read it here:

Before Calvin left France, he wrote, at Orleans, 1534, his first theological book, entitled Psychopannychia, or the Sleep of the Soul. He refutes in it the hypothesis entertained by some Anabaptists, of the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, and proves the unbroken and conscious communion of believers with Christ, their living Head. He appeals no more to philosophy and the classics, as in his earlier book on Seneca, but solely to the Scriptures, as the only rule of faith. Reason can give us no light on the future world, which lies beyond our experience

[FONT=바탕]http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.iv.ix.ix.html[/FONT][FONT=바탕] (#77)[/FONT]


called to this day 'Calvin's Cave;' at Orleans, where he published his first theological work, a tract against the Anabaptist doctrine of the sleep of the soul between death and the resurrection, using exclusively Scriptural arguments with rare exegetical and polemical skill;Psychopannychia, in Opera, Vol. V. pp. 165–232. The Preface is dated 'Aureliæ, 1534.' The second edition appeared in Basle, 1535. This work forms a contrast to his commentary on Seneca as great as exists between the classics and the Bible. In matters relating to the future world. Calvin allows no weight to reason and philosophy, but only to the Word of God. On the merits of this book, see Stähelin, Vol. I. pp. 36 sqq. again (towards the close of 1534) at Paris, where he met for the first time the unfortunate Michael Servetus, and challenged him to a disputation on the Trinity.

[FONT=바탕]http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.ix.ii.vi.html?highlight=soul,sleep,anabaptist#highlight[/FONT]


On the other hand, however, he protests against being confounded with the Anabaptists, and rejects their views on infant baptism, civil offices, the sleep of the soul, and universal salvation.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.ix.ii.i.html ( zwingli on Creeds)


[FONT=바탕]The Synod seems to have accepted the "Nikolsburg Articles" which stated that there was a three-fold baptism of the (1) Spirit, (2) water and (3) suffering and taught soul sleep--that the dead sleep until the resurrection.[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2002/08/daily-08-20-2002.shtml[/FONT]


[FONT=바탕]http://www.reformedreader.org/history/vedder/ch13.htm[/FONT]


Many Presbyterians vehemently attack Anabaptists as Heretics on Soul Sleep.



[FONT=바탕]Maybe Jesus Himself believed the Soul Sleep based on the Immortality of soul.[/FONT]

Mt 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[BobRyan]

Sleeping doesn't mean the Bodily Sleeping which was mentioned by Thomas when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping. I sleep over 7 hours per day, which is Body Sleep. If I die, I will sleep, which is Soul Sleep, but will be waken up when the Lord Jeus comes, which means my soul will wake up with another Body. This is not too difficult.

In John 11 Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM". The PERSON is asleep in death.

Christ maks it clear "LAZARUS IS dead"!

God can view the FIRST death as sleep since it is only at the second death that BOTH body AND SOUL are "destroyed" Matt 10:28.

BTW Eli that last post was very informative - thanks for the links sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The fact that you keep CLAIMING this exists without actually SHOWING it -- is instructive for the objective reader.

I will quote you like you quote me, and put up a rebuttal like you do with me, so all can see your method of debate.

Bob says: "I believe the Bible."
But the Bible says "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)
Becasue the Bible says that there is no God, we must conclude that Bob is an atheist.

This is the type of syllogism you have been putting forth for the past few days, in fact everytime you try and refute me. You take a small quote from me, out of the context in which I said it, and then ridicule it, making it say something that was not said.

Someone who truly is interested in debate will take all the Scriptural evidence given to you, and the explanations given with them, and then refute them. But you have not done that, because you cannot. Let the reader judge that Bob is incapable of intelligent debate. "There is no God." Thus Bob, believing in the Bible, must be an athiest. Taking things out of context is your forte.
"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." Psalm 14:1
It would do you well to look at the context in which people say thing, and not to take a snippet here and there to try and make a point. It doesn't do your case any good.

 

[Eliyahu]

Hey, Both Bob and DHK,

I can talk with you guys endlessly without being annoyed any time on any subjects. If not, I should blame myself, though sometimes it may happen.

Now, as for the Belief of Anabaptists, their thoughts and beliefs can be found from their opponents- Presbyterian or Reformers, or even from RCC.
We know this kind of reality as there are not so many writings made by themselves. The True believers didn't write much theory, because they believed the Bible is the only source of their doctrines and the writings should be limited only to the interpretation of the Bible and to their testimony and praise.

In case of the Re-Baptism or AnaBaptism, RCC often say there was no Anabaptists before Reformation. But their own records show that the Council of Milevi in 416 AD condemned the Anabaptists strictly to be put to death.

Now back to the Soul Sleep, "Destroy" in Matt 10:28 should be understood as meaning " put to the Lake of Fire or to the Hell" Otherwise, you may become the same as the JW's on this issue of punishment.
Many verses support the eternal punishments of the unbelievers. Going to the Hell means the eternal destruction.

Sleeping means that the Subject is still alive.
Soul is the main part of the person. It used to be subjugated to the flesh before the salvation, but after the salvation, it starts to obey to the Spirit where the Holy Spirit reside for every part of the life. The mature believers surrender the most part of their souls to the Spirit, and the Spirit witness to God that the person is saved by the Blood of Jesus.
Some false prophets make fake miracles by using the Soul as the souls have the immense power as well. But true miracles should come from the Spirit by the Holy Spirit.
Sleeping souls will be brought by Jesus with Him at the time of Resurrection.

KJV is very clear and accurate on this threefold analysis, Spirit, Soul, Body, while some other Bibles are confused between Soul and Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

I will quote you like you quote me, and put up a rebuttal like you do with me, so all can see your method of debate.

Bob says: "I believe the Bible."
But the Bible says "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)
Becasue the Bible says that there is no God, we must conclude that Bob is an atheist.

That is pretty funny! If you can't SHOW success in the details of the discussion then just "make stuff up" to illustrate your point.

I am impressed that you would go there.

in fact everytime you try and refute me. You take a small quote from me, out of the context in which I said it, and then ridicule it, making it say something that was not said.

IF you have the facts to back up empty accusations - then provide them I am always happy to read "facts".

Do you have any??

DHK

Someone who truly is interested in debate will take all the Scriptural evidence given to you, and the explanations given with them, and then refute them. But you have not done that, because you cannot.

once again you demonstrate your well tuned, finely mastered ability to "accuse".

Now for some data.

Some facts.

SOMETHING of substance!!

(I only mean this in an earnest effort to encourage you to reach for a higher standard in the discussion)

In Christ,

Bob