Talking to the DEAD

[BobRyan]

Hey, Both Bob and DHK,

I can talk with you guys endlessly without being annoyed any time on any subjects. If not, I should blame myself, though sometimes it may happen.

Now back to the Soul Sleep, "Destroy" in Matt 10:28 should be understood as meaning " put to the Lake of Fire or to the Hell" Otherwise, you may become the same as the JW's on this issue of punishment.
Many verses support the eternal punishments of the unbelievers. Going to the Hell means the eternal destruction.

The JW's believe that the "Bible is the Word of God" -- are we going to give that doctrine up "because the JW's believe it"??

Surely that is not a "proof" for the truth or error of ANY doctrine sir.

As for Matt 10:28 meaning "destroy by causing to have eternal life in fiery hell and never consumed". I would urge a look at a few inconvenient facts.

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do now fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul.

This is a good place to stop and admit what happens TO THE BODY in this FIRST death case of “kill body but NOT soul”. In this case the body is BOTH killed AND destroyed to the point of reducing to DUST. Christ argues that what is ONLY done to the BODY in the first death – is done to BOTH body AND SOUL in the second death!

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )


They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God.

This is the same “everlasting fire” that we see Christ speaking of in Matt 25
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would simply deny this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture. Perhaps they think of these inconvenient facts of scripture as "keyhole facts to be avoided". Who knows!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

The JW's believe that the "Bible is the Word of God" -- are we going to give that doctrine up "because the JW's believe it"??

The point is that this matter was already refuted when we argue with JW's

Surely that is not a "proof" for the truth or error of ANY doctrine sir.
As for Matt 10:28 meaning "destroy by causing to have eternal life in fiery hell and never consumed". I would urge a look at a few inconvenient facts.

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do now fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul.

Killing doesn't mean No existence, I hope you know.

This is a good place to stop and admit what happens TO THE BODY in this FIRST death case of “kill body but NOT soul”. In this case the body is BOTH killed AND destroyed to the point of reducing to DUST. Christ argues that what is ONLY done to the BODY in the first death – is done to BOTH body AND SOUL in the second death!

I wonder how you interpret this:
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They die first and then revive to get the punishment?

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

If the souls die, then why does God need the Eternal Fire for the unbelievers?

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; {/quote] Only the physical, visible parts were reduced to the ashes, their souls are waiting for the Judgment. The punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah has not finished yet.

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )


They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Like WTC in New York, they were destroyed. But the souls in the building must wait for the Judgment on the Great Day of Jesus.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God.

This is the same “everlasting fire” that we see Christ speaking of in Matt 25
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Everlasting means eternal. If the souls dies all, why is the Everlasting Fire needed?

But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would simply deny this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture. Perhaps they think of these inconvenient facts of scripture as "keyhole facts to be avoided". Who knows!

In Christ,

Bob

Read Matt 25
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I don't believe the human tradition, but believe the eternal punishment of the evil doers and the eternal life. How could there be eternal life and eternal punishment without Eternal Souls?

 

[DHK]

That would have been the PERFECT place to put your quote from the Bible that SAYS "man is an IMMORTAL SOUL" or that SAYS "man has IMMORTAL SPIRIT".

This is my point entirely. Go back and read my post (#249,) where I answered this question in about four paragraphs fully expounding a number of passages of Scripture: 1Cor.11:30; John 11; 1Cor.15; and referring to some others as well. Your rebuttal was a smart-alec quip as above. You ignored everything I said, and didn't attempt to refute it whatsoever.

The Bible says: God is dead.
Bob believes the Bible.
Bob is an athiest.
If that is the extent of your logic, why are you here? I gave you an answer. You ignored it.

 

[BobRyan]

This is my point entirely. Go back and read my post (#249,) where I answered this question in about four paragraphs fully expounding a number of passages of Scripture: 1Cor.11:30; John 11; 1Cor.15; and referring to some others as well.

Where we find the terms "IMMORTAL SOUL" and "IMMORTAL spirit" totally ABSENT from EVERY quote you gave sir.

I simply stated that this was "obvious" and we should all be able to admit to that glaring fact. If you HAD such a quote you would have given it by now.

What you have INSTEAD of an actual quote is texts where you have chosen to SURMIZE that what is NOT being said - but what might be inferred is "Immortal soul".

That is hardly a QUOTE stating what in fact you can only surmize or hope to insert into the text.

DHK

The Bible says: God is dead.
Bob believes the Bible.
Bob is an athiest.
If that is the extent of your logic, why are you here?

Hint: I don't make those kind of arguments - so far only you are doing it in a failed attempt to INVENT an argument for ME that is actually flawed.

I appreciate that you have to go to such absurd lengths to find a foothold in this -- but I recommend a more factual approach sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point is that this matter was already refuted when we argue with JW's

IF your claim is that there is some debate posted here with JW's where an outstanding Bible argument was posted against some position that I happen to hold - please post it.

Eliyahu -

Killing doesn't mean No existence, I hope you know.

"Kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" Matt 10:28 ... and we KNOW (as you have already admitted) that this INCLUDES reducing that KILLED body to NOTHING but non-functioning DUST and ASHEs.

I have no problem with the idea that when God "DESTROYS BOTH body AND soul" in the second death (by contrast) that BOTH are then reduced to non-funtioning DUST and ASHES as the "intended meaning".

Notice the Bible shows us that "DESTROY by REDUCING them to ASHES" was in fact the function of ETERNAL FIRE when it was applied to Sodom an Gomorrah.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Where we find the terms "IMMORTAL SOUL" and "IMMORTAL spirit" totally ABSENT from EVERY quote you gave sir.

I simply stated that this was "obvious" and we should all be able to admit to that glaring fact. If you HAD such a quote you would have given it by now.

What you have INSTEAD of an actual quote is texts where you have chosen to SURMIZE that what is NOT being said - but what might be inferred is "Immortal soul".

That is hardly a QUOTE stating what in fact you can only surmize or hope to insert into the text.

Bob you are arguing just like so many other cults I have met. The J.W.'s and Oneness Pentecostals, after being confronted with Scriptural evidence about the trinity say the same thing you do: "I don't find the term trinity in every quote you gave sir." Quite blutly your response is infantile. You haven't even tried to give a refutation because you know that you can't. The Scripture demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that the spirit is eternal (which BTW means immortal).

 

[BobRyan]

Eliyahu

I wonder how you interpret this:
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

TWO resurrections.

As Rev 20:1-5 points out the FIRST resurrection is that of the "Blessed and holy" it is also described in 1Thess 4 "The dead in Christ RISE FIRST".

But then there is a SECOND resurrection - as is pointed out in John 5 -- and Rev 20 points to it as taking place AFTER the 1000 years is completed.

They die first and then revive to get the punishment?

Yes because in the FIRST death the body is killed but SOUL and BODY are NOT BOTH destroyed.. That only happens at the second death.

Eliyahu

If the souls die, then why does God need the Eternal Fire for the unbelievers?

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; {/quote]

This points to the fact that EVEN eternal fire has the effect of REDUCING to ASHES!

But in that case - they suffered the FIRST death and are still destined for the SECOND death of Rev 20 where once again eternal fire is used but this time to DESTROY not only the body (by reducing to ashes) but ALSO to destroy the SOUL in the same way

Eliyahu

Only the physical, visible parts were reduced to the ashes, their souls are waiting for the Judgment. The punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah has not finished yet.

Correct.

Like WTC in New York, they were destroyed. But the souls in the building must wait for the Judgment on the Great Day of Jesus.

Everlasting means eternal. If the souls dies all, why is the Everlasting Fire needed?

As you have already noted - the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah WERE destroyed by ETERNAL Fire -- called "everlasting fire" in scripture and that results in their being DESTROYED - reduced to ashes -- in the FIRST death.

In the SECOND death God uses that same eternal fire only this time to DESTROY not only the body but BOTH Body AND soul -- totally destroyed just as truly as the BODY was REALLY destroyed in the FIRST death.

When the SOUL of the RIGHTEOUS is comprised of the spirit of man joined to the ETERNAL and IMMORTAL body of the resurrection of the JUST in 2Cor 5:-5 and also described in 1Cor 15 -- THEN we have PEOPLE that in fact LIVE forever!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

IF your claim is that there is some debate posted here with JW's where an outstanding Bible argument was posted against some position that I happen to hold - please post it.



"Kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" Matt 10:28 ... and we KNOW (as you have already admitted) that this INCLUDES reducing that KILLED body to NOTHING but non-functioning DUST and ASHEs.

I have no problem with the idea that when God "DESTROYS BOTH body AND soul" in the second death (by contrast) that BOTH are then reduced to non-funtioning DUST and ASHES as the "intended meaning".

Notice the Bible shows us that "DESTROY by REDUCING them to ASHES" was in fact the function of ETERNAL FIRE when it was applied to Sodom an Gomorrah.

in Christ,

Bob

We don't need to waste the time for JW' teachings.

Bob, do you believe the eternal punishment of the unbelievers?

If you believe so, how can God punish the unbelievers without their souls?

 

[Eliyahu]

Bob,

There is some misunderstanding on Revelation 20.

V 4 says about the people who can participate in the first resurrection:
1) They are the special saints like Paul and other apostles - they (v4)
2) The Martyrs beheaded for the Words of God
3) Those who are going to live on this earth at the time when Jesus is coming.

These 3 groups will join the new millennium with Jesus Christ

The rest of the dead lieved not again until the thousand years.
This means the believers who died before Jesus Christ comes again, neither the Martyrs nor the special saints, nor the believers who survive the Great Tribulation.
There have been many believers so far though they didn't martyr.
They will enter the Kingdom of God, but not the Bliss of Third Millennium with Jesus Christ.
The sea will give up the dead which were in it and death and the hell will deliver up the dead which were in them and they were judged everyman according to therir works, ( Rev 20:13) - This is the second Resurrection.

This is why the people pursued the Better Resurrection ( Heb 11:35)

Heb 11:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth

 

[BobRyan]

We don't need to waste the time for JW' teachings.

Bob, do you believe the eternal punishment of the unbelievers?

If you believe so, how can God punish the unbelievers without their souls?

#1. Rev 14:10 ALL of the torment of the wicked takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the LAMB and of His Holy Ones". We are there for every second of it according to scripture.

We see this again in Rev 20 where the second death is suffered by the wicked as they surround the camp of the saints.

#2. Matt 10:28 says that BOTH body AND SOUL are DESTROYED there.

#3. UNLIKE the burning bush in Exodus that is NOT CONSUMED - the wicked ARE consumed and Sodom is given as an EXAMPLE of the "punishment of everlasting fire" according to Jude.

so while their punishment is eternal in that they never come back to life again - they are tortmented in the flames -- then consumed -- "Destroyed BOTH body AND soul".

I am going to have to go with the Word of God on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

There is some misunderstanding on Revelation 20.

V 4 says about the people who can participate in the first resurrection:
1) They are the special saints like Paul and other apostles - they (v4)
2) The Martyrs beheaded for the Words of God
3) Those who are going to live on this earth at the time when Jesus is coming.

These 3 groups will join the new millennium with Jesus Christ

The rest of the dead lieved not again until the thousand years.
This means the believers who died before Jesus Christ comes again, neither the Martyrs nor the special saints, nor the believers who survive the Great Tribulation.

Sounds like a new thread to me -- I am happy to discuss it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Sounds like a new thread to me -- I am happy to discuss it.
In Christ,
Bob

This thread may end soon. But I want to tell you that I have studied Revelation quite a lot and a lot, and got some clear picture for the outline and realized many people misunderstand about it very much.

The outline of Revelation is found in chapter 12 where the Man-child was born and caught up to God, then there pass 1260 days for the woman to live in the wilderness, thereafter the dragon was expelled from heaven and persecute the woman, and apparently it talks about the end time struggle between the dragon and the remnant of the woman, at the end of the chapter. It means that the period from the ascension of Jesus until the end times is expressed as X period and that X period is 1260 days ( during which Jesus preached the Gospel as well).

Many people say that the Christian believers will meet Jesus by having Rapture. But I mentioned that there will be Better Resurrection( Heb 11:35), which means that there will be Worse Resurrection too.
In the first resurrection, only 3 groups will participate which I mentioned.
The others will not live again until the thousand years are fulfilled ( Rev 20:5)

In this era, there are many believers like the one in 1 Cor 5. But such people are saved as Paul said ( 1 Cor 5:5). However, it doesn't mean that the believers like him will be raptured as well.

Therefore there will be the second resurrection for the believers who will neither have the rapture nor participate in the New Millennium with Jesus.

During the Jezebel and Ahab, there were 7000 believers who didn't kneel down to the Baal, but Elijah was the only one who fought Baal worshippers. Did 7,000 experience the Rapture? NOPE ! Only Elijah who fought Idolatry desperately was raptured.

I know there are millions of Christian believers on this earth even today, but I am very sure that they will need a lot of Refinery work thru the Great Tribulation, and many may fail to endure the Tribulation and die in the midst, or surrender to the Idolatry. There are certain classes in the resurrection.

I know there are so many believers who have the faith to go to the heaven, but it doesn't mean that they will participate in the Bliss of the New Millennium, and there will be classifications, which are shown already in the Bible.

This is why our struggle against the Idolatry is really worthwhile. If anyone realize about this difference and the worth of the struggle against the Idolatry later after this life, they will weep and gnash their teeth as they cannot participate in the New Millennium.

Soul itself is related to the person himself or herself and therefore it is not mentioned often, but it is the soul that identifies the people and goes to the Hell or to the Kingdom of God, which requires the Immortality of Soul as a pre-requisite.

 

[BobRyan]

As I said - interesting thread to start - go ahead and start it I will join in.

#1. Millennial kingdom is in heaven not earth.
#2. The FIRST resurrection (stated in Rev 20) is the same one we see in 1Thess 4 at the ratpure.
-- this is where the DEAD in Christ are raised FIRSt. 1thess 4
-- They are called the "blessed and holy" are are rasied FIRST Rev 20

It is only over THESE that "the second death has NO power" Rev 20:5.

It is an interesting discussion - let's do it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

As I said - interesting thread to start - go ahead and start it I will join in.

#1. Millennial kingdom is in heaven not earth.
#2. The FIRST resurrection (stated in Rev 20) is the same one we see in 1Thess 4 at the ratpure.
-- this is where the DEAD in Christ are raised FIRSt. 1thess 4
-- They are called the "blessed and holy" are are rasied FIRST Rev 20

It is only over THESE that "the second death has NO power" Rev 20:5.

It is an interesting discussion - let's do it.

in Christ,

Bob

I understand your reasoning. It may be because the believers are raptured, which means that they are not on the earth. But I believe that the raptured believers will come down to the earth to rule the Earth.
144,000 may be the governing body which consists of the highly rewarded by God such as disciples, then the martyrs will be added.
The New Government will be established in Jerusalem, and Satan knows it, and therefore he is eager to dissuade it. With such spiritual background, Vatican has the plan to relocate its HQ to Jerusalem. The Oslo agreement showed the strong apetite of Vatican there. Temple Mount may belong to Vatican, and Jerualem will become International City with International Airport. Foolish Israelites may expect some peace provided by EU countries which are full of Catholic Countries. Later on they will realize that they are cheated, and their security is in danger. In the whole process Islam will cooperate with RCC very much, with the guarantee of stateship of Palestine. But at the end Israel will cry out to God, then they will realize that the God was the one whom they pierced 2000 years ago, then Jesus will come to the Mount of Olive and destroy all the enemies including Iran and Russia.

This relates to the whole book of Bible such as Ezekiel 37-39, Daniel 9-12, Zechariah 4-13, the whole Revelation, I and II Thessalonians, 1 Cor 15, Isaiah 55-66, Judges, Ezekiel 40-48 for the New Temple, and Amos.
So, this is a huge work which require a lot of time.
I have read many books about the Eschatology, but none of them are correct IMO. I can clearly tell what the Lord clearly showed me, but many portions were not personally revealed to me but I learned from others too. For example, one day Lord gave me the clear picture on Rev 12, and as for Rev 11, one school principal studied the Bible very much and then he realized the period 1260 days are repeated many times, and eventually discoverd what they mean. He was not a pastor or any professional theologian, but I agreed with him many ways.
Even though I am so-called PB, I disagree with JN Darby about his Dispensationalism, William McDonald for the Eschatology, Eric Sauer ( German), Talbot, Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, etc. I know various comparisons, and they are mostly more less the same IMO.
The key point to interpret Revelation is that IT TALKS ABOUT BLOOD AND DEATH OF Jesus Christ. All OT was directing Jesus Christ, all NT directs to JC as well, but suddenly Rev is just for ESchatology? NOPE!
If you look at Rev 12, you will find Manchild was born and ascended to God, then the woman flee, spending 1260 days in the wilderness. At the end, the Dragon persecutes the Woman, and the Woman disappears, but the Remnant of her seed struggle with the dragon. The Woman cannot be Mary, because she lived from the beginning thru the end times.
So, if we closely look at REv 11 and 12 we can easily find the similarity between them like the Gospel Luke and Mark, even Rev 10 is the same as 11, 12, but the dividing the chapter between 10 and 11 was wrong, then the Chapter 10 ends in ch 11:3, so Chapter 11 starts from verse 4, then you will realize what the chapters mean.

Not all the believers will have the joy and privilege of Rapture - Partial Rapture is correct ( Rev 11:11-13). Not all the believers including such one as 1 Cor 5 will participate in the New Millennium, only the chosen people plus the True Believers who survive until the end of Great Tribulation will participate in it. The Rest of them will not live again until 1000 years ( Rev 20:5), but at the end of 1000 years they will be resurrected and participate in the Kingdom of God. There will be Better Resurrection and Worse Resurrection ( Heb 11:35)

It is a huge, huge work to discuss about the whole Eschatology and I don't think this BB is appropriate for such discussion at all.

 

[DHK]

Hmmmm, After at least three requests Bob avoids answering the Scripture posted in post #247.

Nevertheless I thought I would bump this thread up, er, raise it from the dead.
It seems dead out there tonight. Sometimes I think that most of the BB members are dead (sorry folks). This topic to some is deadful, or is that dreadful.

I am tired. I guess you can tell that. I should go to sleep. Some parents teach their children this little ditty (prayer)

Now I lay me down to sleep;

I pray the Lord my soul to keep.

If I should die before I wake,

I pray the Lord my soul to take.


So, perhaps when I lay my head down and fall into that unconscious state of sleep, I really am in a state of "soul sleep." Oh well.

 

[BobRyan]

I understand your reasoning. It may be because the believers are raptured, which means that they are not on the earth. But I believe that the raptured believers will come down to the earth to rule the Earth.

The point is that THE resurrection that is the focus of Revelation is in Rev 20:4-5 "THE FIRST resurrection".

No surprisingly -- this is also THE RESURRECTION that is the focus for all NT Bible writers as we see in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST".

That means that the FIRST resurrection being highlighted in Rev 20 IS THE RAPTURE!

Now take a look at Rev 19 -- everyone agrees THAT is the SECOND COMING!

That means that the saints are not taken to EARTH at the Second coming - rather the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST and they are taken to HEAVEN!

The Millennium for the saints is spent WITH Christ IN heaven.

"I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you (up) to myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

Christ is coming to take the saints to heaven,.

But as I said - a topic for another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No "Talking to the DEAD" because the DEAD IN CHRIST are those who are ASLEEP as we are told in 1Thess 4.

John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM (not IT)"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hmmmm, After at least three requests Bob avoids answering the Scripture posted in post #247.

Nevertheless I thought I would bump this thread up, er, raise it from the dead.
.

This is post 247

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1018876&postcount=247


There is no text saying we have an immortal soul or spirit -- and I think we all agree.

But we do find that the person is in a sleeping state during the first death - where the person's body is dust and the soul is dormant or the spirit has gone back to God who gave it - it is in a dormant state waiting to be once again united to a body.

The spirit is how the PERSON is preserved in death - the SOUL is not destroyed in truth until the spirit does perish.

In Ezek 18:4 we are told "The SOUL that sin it shall DIE" speaking of the SECOND death where "both body AND SOUL are DESTROYED in hell fire".

Basically I agree with your statements about what is happening - I just dont label the soul or spirit as "immortal soul" or "immortal spirit" since thse terms are never used in scripture and to the contrary we have texts saying the "SOUL that sins it shall die".

But as you have pointed out - the death mentioned there is no the FIRST death -- in that case the soul is dormant waiting for the resurrection.

Are you asking me to respond to "my own post"???

Post the link to the post you want me to answer .

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Now I lay me down to sleep;

Body Sleep

I pray the Lord my soul to take.
So, perhaps when I lay my head down and fall into that unconscious state of sleep, I really am in a state of "soul sleep." Oh well.

Soul Sleep

 

[Eliyahu]

The point is that THE resurrection that is the focus of Revelation is in Rev 20:4-5 "THE FIRST resurrection".

First Resurrection means the Resurrection of First group of people.
The first group of unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus comes. This is the leaders of the Believers like 144,000, while the Satan and the leading group of unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

No surprisingly -- this is also THE RESURRECTION that is the focus for all NT Bible writers as we see in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST".

The governing people like 144,000 and the Martyrs shall take the priority and will be resurrected first, they will come down and stand on Mount Zion ( 14:1-5)
The people joining in the First Resurrection are listed in 20:4, not all believers, but the rest of them shall not live again until 1000 years, which didn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers.

That means that the FIRST resurrection being highlighted in Rev 20 IS THE RAPTURE!

Resurrection may be the pre-requisite for the participation in the Millennium

Now take a look at Rev 19 -- everyone agrees THAT is the SECOND COMING!

Correct!

That means that the saints are not taken to EARTH at the Second coming - rather the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST and they are taken to HEAVEN!

No, but we just meet Him in the air, and then come down to live on the earth which may be protected by some way against the Earth.

The Millennium for the saints is spent WITH Christ IN heaven.

Then you won't have Gog and Magog in 20:8. I believe Gog means Georgia and Magog may be somewhere in Russia. Grugia where Schevardnaje and Stalin were born ( I don't know the exact spelling of Schvardnaje who was president of Grugia). Those are earthly names.

"I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you (up) to myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

Christ is coming to take the saints to heaven,.

But as I said - a topic for another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

But via several steps, Staying and sleeping in Paradise, Resurrection, then New Millennium, then Heaven finally.
20:13-14 talks about the second death, which I believe relates to the second resurrection for the average believers and for the average unbelievers.