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Talking to the DEAD
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Sorry Bob, I meant #249BobRyan said:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1019124&postcount=249
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok - then 249 at the pace of "one exchange at a time". (So we get to see it in detail).
Oh Contrare -- in Matt 22 Christ DOES say of the saints who have died "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" arguing that ONLY in the solution of the resurrection CAN GOD be considered "the God of Abraham".
In 1Thess 4 we get that same point again - Paul arguing that the SOLUTION to avoiding the problem of "those that have no hope" when their loved ones die - is only in the resurrection of the "DEAD in Christ who rise FIRST".
in 1Cor 15 he argues the SAME thing again say that all those saints who have died - have believed in vain IF there is no resurrection!
In 2Cor 6 Paul DOES make the argument of ALIVE - - then DEAD and unclothed with a tent at all -- then ALIVE again and clothed with our eternal immortal body at the resurrection.
These sequences that you claim do NOT exist - actually DO exist in scripture!!
in Christ,
Bob
Oh Contrare -- in Matt 22 Christ DOES say of the saints who have died "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" arguing that ONLY in the solution of the resurrection CAN GOD be considered "the God of Abraham".
In 1Thess 4 we get that same point again - Paul arguing that the SOLUTION to avoiding the problem of "those that have no hope" when their loved ones die - is only in the resurrection of the "DEAD in Christ who rise FIRST".
in 1Cor 15 he argues the SAME thing again say that all those saints who have died - have believed in vain IF there is no resurrection!
In 2Cor 6 Paul DOES make the argument of ALIVE - - then DEAD and unclothed with a tent at all -- then ALIVE again and clothed with our eternal immortal body at the resurrection.
These sequences that you claim do NOT exist - actually DO exist in scripture!!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Easy enough to "claim" -- now try "showing that it is true"!!
Try showing that we EVER see a text saying "Lazarus is AWAKE and ALIVE but his body SLEEPS I go that I may wake IT".
Try showing that the Bible EVER says "many of you are STILL alive but your body SLEEPS in the ground"
That is a good example that did NOT show what you needed.
Next.
That is a good example of "making stuff up" -- I never mentioned anything about purgatory -- but purgatory REQUIRES a "LIVING WHILE DEAD" doctrinal error to sustain it -- very much like the idea you believe in.
The problem is that this SHOWS your error for it does not say "SOME of you have BODIES that are asleep in death while YOU continue to be awake and alive"...
And so your argument has yet to find any support at all in scripture.
Hence the reason I would not tie my wagon to it.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUs sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
Jesus does not say "Lazarus DOES NOT sleep just his body does -- I go that I may wake IT".
Even MORE devastating to your position sir.
Ready to change your view?
Jesus consistently speaks of Lazarus THE PERSON never "IT" the body of Lazarus - and THAT is always how the SOUL is stated in scripture.
Again - devastating to your own argument since this is not "Lazarus' BODY sleeps but Lazarus remains even MORE awake then before".
In all cases with both Jesus AND Mary AND Martha it is "Lazarus the PERSON" that has died that is to be raised etc. They NEVER say "I know that HIS BODY will be raised some day but HE is now awake and alive and NOT dead".
Next.
Also devastating to your view sir!
It is the PEOPLE the souls the saints "WE shall all be changed" NOT "our bodies shall not all sleep but our bodies shall be changed".
DUST is dust - ashes are ashes YOU do not REAP what you plant. It is ANOTHER body OTHER than the old dust that is raised. The old ashes, old dust simply remains.
but the PERSON is raised to live "WE shall not all sleep but WE shall be changed" WE put ON immortality at the resurrection according to 1Cor 15 -- WE the people!!
true but it does not say "our bodies sleep" rather our bodies "RETURN TO DUST".
You keep claiming that the resurrection does not refer to the person but just the body of the PERSON -- yet consistently in scripture we see that your argument lacks any support at all for it is always the PERSON that sleeps and the PERSON that is dead and the PERSON that is resurrected NEVER does scripture say "our body sleeps in death". Rather "WE shall not all sleep but WE shall be changed"
in Christ,
Bob
Jesus does not say "Lazarus DOES NOT sleep just his body does -- I go that I may wake IT".
Even MORE devastating to your position sir.
Ready to change your view?
Jesus consistently speaks of Lazarus THE PERSON never "IT" the body of Lazarus - and THAT is always how the SOUL is stated in scripture.
Again - devastating to your own argument since this is not "Lazarus' BODY sleeps but Lazarus remains even MORE awake then before".
In all cases with both Jesus AND Mary AND Martha it is "Lazarus the PERSON" that has died that is to be raised etc. They NEVER say "I know that HIS BODY will be raised some day but HE is now awake and alive and NOT dead".
Next.
Also devastating to your view sir!
It is the PEOPLE the souls the saints "WE shall all be changed" NOT "our bodies shall not all sleep but our bodies shall be changed".
DUST is dust - ashes are ashes YOU do not REAP what you plant. It is ANOTHER body OTHER than the old dust that is raised. The old ashes, old dust simply remains.
but the PERSON is raised to live "WE shall not all sleep but WE shall be changed" WE put ON immortality at the resurrection according to 1Cor 15 -- WE the people!!
true but it does not say "our bodies sleep" rather our bodies "RETURN TO DUST".
You keep claiming that the resurrection does not refer to the person but just the body of the PERSON -- yet consistently in scripture we see that your argument lacks any support at all for it is always the PERSON that sleeps and the PERSON that is dead and the PERSON that is resurrected NEVER does scripture say "our body sleeps in death". Rather "WE shall not all sleep but WE shall be changed"
in Christ,
Bob
Yes, it was his body that was dead. The spirit never dies. The people were gathered around a tomb, where a body, wrapped in grave clothes was lain. The body was there. Jesus referred to the body as sleeping. He referred to the body as dead. Read the Scripture in its context.BobRyan said:
You are playing a game of semantics and losing it. The body of Lazarus lay in the grave. The spirit never dies. If the spirit died; then there would be no salvation, and God would be dead. Would God be able to wake himself from an unconscious soul sleep? The spirit of Christ never died. Neither does the spirit of man. We are immortal creatures. We are made as spirit beings, clothed now with temporal houses awaiting our celestial houses (bodies). Jesus referred to the body of Lazarus, not his spirit. His body was dead--sleeping. Jesus went to waken it--the body. He didn't have to waken a spirit that was already alive.
You are very confused. Jesus spoke of the body of Lazarus when it was in the grave. He went to raise him from the dead. It was his body, now decaying (as Martha said). "Lord, it stinketh." It was not a soul or the spirit that was giving off foul airs, but rather the decaying rot from the body of Lazarus. Jesus revived that body from the dead. He gave it life. He awoke it. It has nothing to do with the soul or spirit. You cannot wake someithing already alive and awake. The spirit was not dead and/or sleeping. Sleep = death. Lazarus is sleeping. Lazarus is dead. Christ makes both statements. If both statements were also applied to Christ, then today God would be dead, according to SDA theology. But they don't think their theology through.
Lazarus' body sleeps = Lazarus's body is dead. That is what Christ said.
He didn't say soul or spirit. The sprit never dies. If it died then God would be dead. It is a foolish doctrine--soul sleep. Yet the Bible says that our resurrection will be like Christ's.
In the Bible, whether it "The Resurrection" (of Christ) or our resurrection, "resurrection" always, always, refers to the body. There is no such thing as a "spirit resurrection." Resurrection speaks of the body, not the spirit or the soul (unless you are of a cult like the J.W.'s). We believe in a "bodily resurrection." Our bodies will be rasied. It is not souls or spirits. It is our bodies that will be raised. The spirit is already living and with Christ. "I will never leave you nor forsake you." is a promise for all eternity.
You pretend to be quite the psychologist reading into the minds of Mary and Martha. How do you know what they were thinking? Did you ask them? That must have been quite a trick! Neither Jesus, Mary, or Martha said "Lazarus the person" is dead. You are putting words into the Scripture, adding your words. Lazarus was dead. What does the body say about that:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Death happens when the spirit leaves the body. The spirit never dies. When the spirit leaves one is left with a body; the body is sent to the morgue, and eventually buried. When the Medical Examiner examines the body in the morgue, there is no spirit present, though that spirit is still alive and with the Lord (if saved), or alive in Hell if not saved. Nevertheless that body is still there. "Lazarus is dead." There is his body (not spirit) in the grave. You are adding to the Scripture your SDA theology which is not there. The body was in the grave; not the spirit. The body was dead; not the spirit. Lazarus was dead; not his spirit.
Uh thank you DHK....I was going to say the body may be dead but the soul is immortal and therefore is seperate from the physical matter.....I do not know what the SDA believe here as unfortunately the writings of Bob are like a stun grenade......way too long for this blond butterfly:tonofbricks:
No probllem. There are some beliefs that are similar especially when you take away the man-made doctrines such as purgatory. We agree that when a person dies his spirit lives on for eternity. I believe that now and was taught that as a Catholic as well. SDA's on the other hand believe that the "soul" sleeps in a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection.Briony-Gloriana said:
But the resurrection always refers to the body, not the spirit. The spirit lives on forever. It is immortal, never dying, never sleeping.
Our (my) problem with the RCC is that even though there are spirits in Heaven--the spirits of Mary, Peter, Paul, and other saved, they are still spirits. Death refers to the body. As James plainly says:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The body without the spirit is dead. It is the body that we consider dead, not the spirit. The Bible is clear on this issue. It is the body that will be raised again. To pray to the spirits in heaven is wrong. It is what the Bible calls necromancy. Only God can accept prayer. Only God can accept worship. Prayer is worship. And that is why it is wrong. That is the actual topic of this thread. Why praying to the dead is wrong.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUs sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
That would be HIM -- not IT ("him" the PERSON Lazarus not "IT" the body of Lazarus only)
BUT DHK said
Proviing once again that no matter how glaring the point is - those who find it "inconvenient" can just repeat themselves and ignore the salient point entirely.
(Short post for those who prefer short).
in Christ,
Bob
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUs sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
That would be HIM -- not IT ("him" the PERSON Lazarus not "IT" the body of Lazarus only)
BUT DHK said
Proviing once again that no matter how glaring the point is - those who find it "inconvenient" can just repeat themselves and ignore the salient point entirely.
(Short post for those who prefer short).
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUs sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
Jesus does not say "Lazarus DOES NOT sleep just his body does -- I go that I may wake IT".
DHK responds ..
Proving once again that the salient point put to his suggestions can easily be ignored.
Indeed - and this is the part we all agree with.
The piont "remains" Christ says "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
The fact that resurrection (the WAKING of the PERSON from death) always takes place at the grave merely emphasizes the point that with the Death and DECAY of the body to DUST - is associated the SLEEP in DEATH of the PERSON.
next.
in Christ,
Bob
Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUs sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
Jesus does not say "Lazarus DOES NOT sleep just his body does -- I go that I may wake IT".
DHK responds ..
Proving once again that the salient point put to his suggestions can easily be ignored.
Indeed - and this is the part we all agree with.
The piont "remains" Christ says "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".
The fact that resurrection (the WAKING of the PERSON from death) always takes place at the grave merely emphasizes the point that with the Death and DECAY of the body to DUST - is associated the SLEEP in DEATH of the PERSON.
next.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tiny post alert --
Easy enough to "claim" -- now try "showing that it is true"!!
Try showing that we EVER see a text saying "Lazarus is AWAKE and ALIVE but his body SLEEPS I go that I may wake IT".
Try showing that the Bible EVER says "many of you are STILL alive but your body SLEEPS in the ground"
Easy enough to "claim" -- now try "showing that it is true"!!
Try showing that we EVER see a text saying "Lazarus is AWAKE and ALIVE but his body SLEEPS I go that I may wake IT".
Try showing that the Bible EVER says "many of you are STILL alive but your body SLEEPS in the ground"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In all cases with both Jesus AND Mary AND Martha it is "Lazarus the PERSON" that has died that is to be raised etc. They NEVER say "I know that HIS BODY will be raised some day but HE is now awake and alive and NOT dead".
Obfuscation "again"?
The text ITSELF uses PERSONAL PRONOUNS and instead of using YOUR language saying "IT was aslee" we see the TEXT telling us "HE was a asleep".
Here is DHK using the "IT" language that FITS is view
By contrast Jesus said "LAZARUS (the PERSON) sleeps I go that I may wake HIM (the PERSON)"
Mary said "HE would not have DIED" if Christ had come sooner.
The PERSON is the one sleeping - the BODY is the part of that person that is DECAYING not SLEEPING.
in Christ,
Bob
Obfuscation "again"?
The text ITSELF uses PERSONAL PRONOUNS and instead of using YOUR language saying "IT was aslee" we see the TEXT telling us "HE was a asleep".
Here is DHK using the "IT" language that FITS is view
By contrast Jesus said "LAZARUS (the PERSON) sleeps I go that I may wake HIM (the PERSON)"
Mary said "HE would not have DIED" if Christ had come sooner.
The PERSON is the one sleeping - the BODY is the part of that person that is DECAYING not SLEEPING.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
A correction to my survey of texts - it is 2Cor 5 not 2Cor6.
---------------------------------------------------
Oh Contrare -- in Matt 22 Christ DOES say of the saints who have died "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" arguing that ONLY in the solution of the resurrection CAN GOD be considered "the God of Abraham".
In 1Thess 4 we get that same point again - Paul arguing that the SOLUTION to avoiding the problem of "those that have no hope" when their loved ones die - is only in the resurrection of the "DEAD in Christ who rise FIRST".
in 1Cor 15 he argues the SAME thing again say that all those saints who have died - have believed in vain IF there is no resurrection!
In 2Cor 5 Paul DOES make the argument of ALIVE in this life and clothed with a mortal tent that wears away - then DEAD and unclothed having NO tent at all -- then ALIVE again and clothed with our eternal immortal body at the resurrection.
These sequences that you claim do NOT exist - actually DO exist in scripture!!
---------------------------------------------------
Oh Contrare -- in Matt 22 Christ DOES say of the saints who have died "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" arguing that ONLY in the solution of the resurrection CAN GOD be considered "the God of Abraham".
In 1Thess 4 we get that same point again - Paul arguing that the SOLUTION to avoiding the problem of "those that have no hope" when their loved ones die - is only in the resurrection of the "DEAD in Christ who rise FIRST".
in 1Cor 15 he argues the SAME thing again say that all those saints who have died - have believed in vain IF there is no resurrection!
In 2Cor 5 Paul DOES make the argument of ALIVE in this life and clothed with a mortal tent that wears away - then DEAD and unclothed having NO tent at all -- then ALIVE again and clothed with our eternal immortal body at the resurrection.
These sequences that you claim do NOT exist - actually DO exist in scripture!!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Notice the PERSONAL pronouns in John 11 indicating that it is the PERSON that is asleep in death not the body of the person that sleeps.
John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, ""This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.''
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.
7 Then after this He said to the disciples, "" Let us go to Judea again.''
8 The disciples said to Him, "" Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?''
9 Jesus answered, "" Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10 ""But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.''
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
Now let’s edit and abuse the text to FIT the doctrine of those who claim that the PERSON does not die – the PERSON does not sleep – but only “the body of the person”.
So we will REPLACE the personal pronouns with the “IT” language as if IT was the body of Lazarus SLEEPING while LAZARUS remains awake!!
John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, ""This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.''
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.
7 Then after this He said to the disciples, "" Let us go to Judea again.''
8 The disciples said to Him, "" Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?''
9 Jesus answered, "" Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10 ""But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.''
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to IT so that his body may be awake like HE is.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had not been in the tomb but his BODY had already been in the tomb four days.
John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, ""This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.''
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.
7 Then after this He said to the disciples, "" Let us go to Judea again.''
8 The disciples said to Him, "" Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?''
9 Jesus answered, "" Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10 ""But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.''
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
Now let’s edit and abuse the text to FIT the doctrine of those who claim that the PERSON does not die – the PERSON does not sleep – but only “the body of the person”.
So we will REPLACE the personal pronouns with the “IT” language as if IT was the body of Lazarus SLEEPING while LAZARUS remains awake!!
John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, ""This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.''
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.
7 Then after this He said to the disciples, "" Let us go to Judea again.''
8 The disciples said to Him, "" Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?''
9 Jesus answered, "" Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10 ""But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.''
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to IT so that his body may be awake like HE is.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had not been in the tomb but his BODY had already been in the tomb four days.
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Bob your emphasis on personal pronouns, just to defend your position is ridiculous, and any reader can see that. Some of my relatives have died and are dead. I myself have conducted funerals of others. When referring to the deceased, the one lying in the coffin at the front, I refer to him by name. Personal pronouns are always used. I never refer to the body as "it." I refer to the deceased as him, and by his name. If your warped theology doesn't allow for that, that doesn't mean you have to try and change the Bible. Your eisigesis on these passages is terrible. You are using a method of semantics to try and make the Bible say what you want it to say, when it doesn't.
I don't know of any person who doesn't refer to their loved one who has passed away as "it." But you insist on this. Ask Briony. Would she refer to her grandfather or great grandfather (whomever has died) as he or it is buried in _____cemetary. Where was George Washington buried? IT was buried in______?? I think not. We refer to people by their names even though it is just their bodies that remain there, or even the dust of their bodies. Your argument makes no sense.
It is the spirit that is in heaven (or hell). The body awaits the resurrection. You have a bogus argument all the way through based on an erroneous pre-conceived theology.
I don't know of any person who doesn't refer to their loved one who has passed away as "it." But you insist on this. Ask Briony. Would she refer to her grandfather or great grandfather (whomever has died) as he or it is buried in _____cemetary. Where was George Washington buried? IT was buried in______?? I think not. We refer to people by their names even though it is just their bodies that remain there, or even the dust of their bodies. Your argument makes no sense.
It is the spirit that is in heaven (or hell). The body awaits the resurrection. You have a bogus argument all the way through based on an erroneous pre-conceived theology.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
An interesting empty assumption. Do you have any substance for that point?
For example we use the personal pronouns for the Holy Spirit to SHOW that HE is a person -- not an IT.
Your argument for ignoring the cases where a PERSON is being addressed needs some actual substance sir.
Your doctrine is in error and as you point out -- it does not even fit your own practice.
For example if someone had lost a hand - you would not say "hey look he is now two people!!". Rather the severed hand would be "IT" and the PERSON would still be the "HE" or "SHE".
Step 1 - to clean up your response for a minute --
I believe you meant to say "I don't know of any person who refers to a loved one that has passed away as "IT" ")
Step 2 - to answer your response -
Because in practice the Bible way IS THE RIGHT way so it keeps coming back in everyday life sir.
How can you use that as an argument against MY SUPPORT of that Bible view??? You are simply exposing the weakness in your OWN argument sir and then "blaming it on me". I really can't help you there.
in Christ,
Bob
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You mean you can't help your own theology except to further defeat yourself. No one calls their deceased loved ones with impersonal pronouns such as "it." Almost all of them are referring to the body in the grave at the funeral. When referring to the person in heaven they are referring to the spirit, which is eternal. You are the loner on this one, and your theology is greatly flawed. In the above posts you have defeated your own logic.BobRyan said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Bible claims that those who are asleep are to be called the "dead in Christ" - our loved ones.
1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
Paul points out the “solution” for those who might otherwise grieve “as those who have no hope” when they encounter the death of a loved one.
Paul states that the key is “being infomed about those who ARE asleep”.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who(persons) have fallen asleep in Jesus.
God will “bring with him those who (persons) have fallen asleep”
Is Christ “bringing dead bodies with him”??? some claim that this is the case for “those who sleep” for they claim this is only a reference to “dead bodies”.
But we know this is not true! We know that bodies “return to DUST” in decay – they do not “sleep” in death.
It is the PERSON who is “asleep in death”. They are referred to as “THOSE WHO are asleep”
Paul shows us that the difference between those who grieve having no hope -- and those who do not, is in understanding the truth regarding those "who ARE asleep".
Paul has the entire NT church focused on this 1Thess 4 resurrection event as "THE hope" and "the focus" of the church "in hope".
1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede [b]those[/b] who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.[/b]
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
Paul points out the “solution” for those who might otherwise grieve “as those who have no hope” when they encounter the death of a loved one.
Paul states that the key is “being infomed about those who ARE asleep”.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who(persons) have fallen asleep in Jesus.
God will “bring with him those who (persons) have fallen asleep”
Is Christ “bringing dead bodies with him”??? some claim that this is the case for “those who sleep” for they claim this is only a reference to “dead bodies”.
But we know this is not true! We know that bodies “return to DUST” in decay – they do not “sleep” in death.
It is the PERSON who is “asleep in death”. They are referred to as “THOSE WHO are asleep”
Paul shows us that the difference between those who grieve having no hope -- and those who do not, is in understanding the truth regarding those "who ARE asleep".
Paul has the entire NT church focused on this 1Thess 4 resurrection event as "THE hope" and "the focus" of the church "in hope".
1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede [b]those[/b] who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.[/b]
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
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