BobRyan said:
Rather the argument on one side is that the PERSON (Soul) sleeps in death whild the actual BODY decays like the worn out tent of 2Cor 5 that does NOT EVER come back! A NEW Tent is assigned at the resurrection as 2Cor 5 instead of the OLD tent. At that point he PERSON is awakened. The PERSON is changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump - the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST.
This thread will likely close. I may close it after answer this post because it well past 30 pages now (not because I want to get the last word in).
However, Bob, you have one major problem that makes this thread almost impossible for intelligent discussion to go any further. You read every verse with rose colored glasses; preconceived ideas; with no objective mind whatsoever. Every time a verse is presented to you, you must force your theology into that verse and answer it with those rose colored glasses, blind to any other view point, thus rendering all discussion futile.
Let me point out some basic problems:
1. The definition of a soul. What is "the soul." You have you little definition of a soul, and use that keyhole method of interpretation, forcing that definition into every passage. But that doesn't work. "Soul" actually has many meanings. The meaning of the word "soul" must depend on the context in which it is used. Sometimes soul and spirit are used interchangeably, and then what would you have us to believe? Do you go chasing after some ethereal "soul" that is floating somewhere in space (atmosphere) try to catch it so it can be buried? Your theology is ridiculous in thinking that something so ethereal as "spirit" or "soul" can be buried. It is absurd. It is just as absurd to think that you can catch a demon and bury it along with the person that it inhabited. Are you able to do that Bob? Can you demonstrate it for us?
2. Soul is sometimes, and even only rarely, used to refer to the person--as you would like it to refer to all the time. "The soul that sinneth it shall die. Here it refers to the person. Bob, if you, as a person, continue in your sin, you will die in your sin. That is the meaning of this verse. It is speaking of the consequence of sin, and the word soul speaks of persons.
3. The NT people at the time of Christ were not scientists. Often the word soul is used iin the same way that we use brain. It is used interchangeably with a number of other words. The Bible speaks of "bowels of mercies." Mercy, or the ability to show it comes from the brain, as do also the other emotions. Most often it uses the word "heart."
Matthew 15:19 For
out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--These things we think about. They are formulated in our brain. The word brain was unknown then.
Serving God is a matter of choice involving the mind or the brain:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then
with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The soul is used as the center of our body, the heart, the mind, the place that we make our decisions to choose or not to choose to serve God.
4. Animals have souls.
(Gen 1:20 MKJV) And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a
living soul; and let birds fly over the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens.
(Gen 1:21 MKJV) And God created great sea-animals, and every
living soul that creeps with which the waters swarmed after their kind; and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
--The same word that is translated "soul" for man, "nephesh" is used for animals here. Animals have souls just like man. What happens when the soul of an animal dies? Do they go into soul sleep? Do they go to heaven or hell? Will they rise again at the resurrection? No, of course not. The soul means "Life." It is the brain which gives them the life. When the life is extingueshed, the carcass is buried (as in a dog). The same is true with a man. The difference between a man and a dog (or other animal) is that man has an immortal spirit that goes to heaven or hell at the time of his death. It is that spiritual part of man that is able to communicate with God--something animals cannot do.
In 1Thess 4 Paul deals with the problem of those who think that because their loved ones died before the time of the second coming (return of Christ) they will miss out on heaven. Paul assures them "WE will not precede them to heaven FOR THE DEAD in Christ will RISE FIRST"
By contrast --
Some like you have argued that it is the decaying body of 2Cor 5 that "sleeps" and the NEW body -- immortal -- that is given in 2Cor 5 instead of the OLD decaying (turned to dust one) is innexplicably being called "the old body waking up" instead of the PERSON being asleep in the death and the PERSON being awakened in the resurrection.
Your preconceived ideas color the interpretation of these verses so that you can see nothing but lies and error. You won't even look at the truth and see the ridiculousness of your position. Bob, you cannot bury a soul, or a spirit. You cannot bury something that is ethereal. You cannot bury the "life" of the animal, unless you are strictly defining it as the organ that we call the brain. If you define the soul as the brain, the fine. But some day God will rase the dust and ashes of John Huss and create out of them a perfect and new body and it will be joined with his spirit. "We will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..." It doesn't say we will be given; it says we will be changed. This old body will be changed. God will change the atoms of this old body into a new and perfect body. He is able. There is nothing said about waking up--nothing. Sleep means death. That is all. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there. You read Scripture with rose colored glasses and are unable to see the truth of it.
However in 1Thess 4 we have a very devastating fact that surfaced -- that is that the state and hope of the Christian is ONLY based on the facts regarding the SLEEPING saints and the day of their being raised from the DEAD. This was given as the solution to the problem of some who supposed that their loved ones died before the second coming and would therefore miss out on heaven.
The dead and sleeping refer only to dead bodies and that is all. Souls don't sleep. Are you going to grab a soul out of the air and tell it to sleep. Don't be ridiculous. Are you going to command a demon to go to sleep? Can you command something ethereal to do anything? Not unless the soul is defined as the organ called the brain will it die and be dead and decomposing with the rest of the body, will the soul in any way be called dead. Your facts are your imagination.
HOWEVER - if your idea of People REMAINING alive in death - were true
Where did I say that?
they REMAIN immortal and ALIVE with Christ
And so every saint will that is alive when Christ comes again.
INSTEAD of that - Paul argues that the fact and focus of our hope regarding our sleeping loved ones is "The DEAD IN CHRIST will RISE FIRST"
And so they will--their dead bodies. It is speaking of a resurrection. Resurrections speak only of bodies.
and "WE shall not preceed them in the air for the DEAD in Christ will RISE FIRST". That should not have been the focus for how they get out first RATHER -- if your idea were true -- Paul should have said "they are ALREADY THERE - they already went to heaven ahead of you".
Their spirits are already there. In the resurrection, only the body rises. This is where you are confused becasue you can only look at Scripture with rose-colored glasses and cannot see Scripture objectively.
