• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ted Cruz’s birther problem grows as more constitutional law scholars say he can’t be president

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Ted Cruz’s birther problem grows as more constitutional law scholars say he can’t be president

A growing number of constitutional law scholars are arguing that Ted Cruz’s birth in Canada makes him ineligible to become president. Their argument could prove a thorn in the side of the senator, who is a zealous originalist on most constitutional questions—with what seems like a notable exception.

The issue has moved to the center of the presidential campaign, with Cruz’s rise in the polls and Donald Trump claiming that Cruz needs to prove he’s eligible to run by getting a declaratory judgment in federal court.

There is some ambiguity in the question of eligibility. The Constitution sets down three requirements to assume the nation's highest office: one must be at least 35 years old, have been a resident of the U.S. for at least 14 years (though whether those years must be consecutive or can be cumulative is a question up for debate) and must be a "natural-born citizen" of the United States. But the founders did not explicitly define "natural-born citizen," leaving room for doubt and debate.

While Cruz has told reporters his eligibility to become president is "settled law" because his mother was an American citizen when he was born and never renounced her American citizenship while she was a Canadian resident. Many constitutional theorists agree with Cruz that it's not really up for debate.

But it’s hardly unanimous. An increasing number of high-profile constitutional law professors, including one of Cruz's own professors from Harvard Law School, have in recent days argued publicly that Cruz's birth disqualifies him.

"t's all in how you read the Constitution," wrote Thomas Lee, a professor of constitutional and international law at Fordham University, in an op-ed published in the Los Angeles Times Sunday:

There are three leading theories of how to interpret the Constitution today. One is textualism: The Constitution means what its words say. The historical context of the words is important when a modern plain meaning is not self-evident. A second theory, adopted by many liberals, relies on a "living Constitution": the Constitution means what is most consistent with fundamental constitutional values as applied to present circumstances. The third theory, championed by many leading conservatives, is originalism: The Constitution means what ordinary people would have understood it to mean at the time it was ratified, in 1788.

According to Lee, two legal theories of citizenship were popular at the time the Constitution was ratified: jus soli (Latin for "law of the land), which held that a child's citizenship flowed from the actual, physical place of his birth, and jus sanguinis ("law of the blood"), which held that parents passed their citizenship to their children. However, Lee argues, at the time the Constitution was ratified, jus sanguinis applied only to patrilineal descent.

"However odious it seems today, a child born of a woman whose citizenship was different from her husband's—much rarer then than today—could not be a 'natural born Citizen' of the mother's country. That idea wasn't even considered until 1844 in Victorian England."

Mary Brigid McManamon, a constitutional law professor at Widener University, made a similar argument in The Washington Post Tuesday. "In this election cycle, numerous pundits have declared that Cruz is eligible to be president," she writes. "They rely on a supposed consensus among legal experts. This notion appears to emanate largely from a recent comment in the Harvard Law Review Forum by former Solicitors General Neal Katyal and Paul Clement. In trying to put the question of who is a natural-born citizen to rest, however, the authors misunderstand, misapply and ignore the relevant law."

The law Katyal and Clement are ignoring, McManamon argues, is 18th-century English common law, which the Supreme Court has said is a necessary lens for understanding the founders' understanding of the Constitution—a fact that Katyal, Clement and McManamon agree on. English common law was "unequivocal" on the subject, McManamon says: "Natural-born subjects had to be born in English territory." Katyal and Clement, rather than relying on common law, turn for their interpretation to a trio of 18th-century British statutes that were "a revolutionary departure" from the common law, McManamon argues.

Now a former teacher of Cruz's says he thinks the senator isn't eligible to run for president. Laurence Tribe, a professor of constitutional law at Harvard who taught both Cruz and President Barack Obama, wrote about the subject in an op-ed published Monday in The Boston Globe.

"People are entitled to their own opinions about what the definition ought to be," Tribe writes. "But the kind of judge Cruz says he admires and would appoint to the Supreme Court is an 'originalist,' one who claims to be bound by the narrowly historical meaning of the Constitution's terms at the time of their adoption. To his kind of judge, Cruz ironically wouldn't be eligible, because the legal principles that prevailed in the 1780s and '90s required that someone actually be born on U.S. soil to be a 'natural born' citizen. Even having two U.S. parents wouldn’t suffice. And having just an American mother, as Cruz did, would have been insufficient at a time that made patrilineal descent decisive."

Tribe later called Cruz a "fair-weather originalist" on CNN, saying the senator's philosophy is "antiquated...but it turns out Ted Cruz drops that when it doesn't serve his purpose."

Donald Trump, the front-runner for the Republican nomination, had been touting Tribe's scholarship on the question in the days leading up to the Harvard professor's op-ed. In response, Cruz called Tribe "a liberal left-wing judicial activist."
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/more-constitutional-law-scholars-say-ted-cruz-cant-be-president/


BIRTHERGATE, The Sequel.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
Cruz has no worries Zaac the constitutional experts here on BB say he's cool because the people who wrote the constitution were to dumb to understand what a natural born citizen is.

Besides no one pays any attention to the constitution anymore anyway.
 

777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, this might be a minority opinion, but I don't think either Cruz nor Rubio are NBC . . . to me, the definition requires a birth on American soil (McCain qualifies) and two American citizens as parents. Cruz is the weaker case of the two, IMO.
 

Kevin

Active Member
Just follow obamos lead and basically give everyone the middle finger that dares question him. I suppose he is also in the position to call everyone a racist, that would question him, just like obamo.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Cruz has no worries Zaac the constitutional experts here on BB say he's cool because the people who wrote the constitution were to dumb to understand what a natural born citizen is.

Besides no one pays any attention to the constitution anymore anyway.

Well that settles it.
roll.gif
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Well, this might be a minority opinion, but I don't think either Cruz nor Rubio are NBC . . . to me, the definition requires a birth on American soil (McCain qualifies) and two American citizens as parents. Cruz is the weaker case of the two, IMO.

Obama was born in the US. Cruz wasn't.
 

777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Okay, but the thing is I don't think Obama is an NBC anyways because of his non-American citizen father. My strict definition will probably not hold up in the courts but I can see why Trump and others are scared to death to go with Cruz. I think Rubio and Obama are native-born, but that's another ball of wax.

Say Obama had been born in Kenya, then it would be identical to Cruz's situation - one American citizen parent, foreign soil. Too loose an interpretation for me.
 

padredurand

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship."

Source
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Okay, but the thing is I don't think Obama is an NBC anyways because of his non-American citizen father. My strict definition will probably not hold up in the courts but I can see why Trump and others are scared to death to go with Cruz. I think Rubio and Obama are native-born, but that's another ball of wax.

Say Obama had been born in Kenya, then it would be identical to Cruz's situation - one American citizen parent, foreign soil. Too loose an interpretation for me.

The same birther folks who believed Obama to have been born in Kenya should be the same ones going after Cruz. I think natural born should be interpreted as natural born. If you were not born in this country or on soil that was considered the US, you should not be eligible to be President.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I think natural born should be interpreted as natural born. If you were not born in this country or on soil that was considered the US, you should not be eligible to be President.
So you think Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Quincy Adams, Jackson, Harrison, and Chester Arthur should not have been President?

And that George Romney and John McCain were not eligible to run for President?

You have obviously missed the Jus Sanguinis status conferred by the 14th amendment.

(Anybody know how to shut off those stupid icons that change the name of our 4th US President to a stupid looking angry face?)
 
Last edited:

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Say Obama had been born in Kenya, then it would be identical to Cruz's situation - one American citizen parent, foreign soil. Too loose an interpretation for me.

Thank you.

"A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship."

Source

Seems pretty cut & dried. So does Ted's mother meet the criteria?

"State of Delaware Vital Records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson birth exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate."
Cruz Citizenship Timeline (documented)


"Born on December 22, 1970, in Calgary, Canada, conservative politician Ted Cruz..."
 
Last edited:

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here's the whole outline:

Ted Cruz Citizenship Timeline
March 26, 2015 at 5:04pm
Cruz Citizenship Timeline (documented)

State of Delaware Vital Records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson birth exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.

FACTUAL CRUZ CITIZENSHIP TIMELINE
(Everything presented in this timeline is a matter of public record. All of it is based upon publicly reported events, public statements made by Rafael Cruz, Ted Cruz, officials with the Elect Ted movement or US and Canadian officials."
1957 - After working as a teen to help Fidel Castro gain power in Cuba, and being imprisoned for his actions by the Batista regime, Cuban Rafael Cruz applies for admittance to the University of Te'as as a foreign student and enters the US on a four year student visa to attend four years of college. He is a Cuban citizen attending a US college on a foreign student visa obtained through the US Consulate in Havana.
1961-1962 - After graduating college at the University of Texas, and upon the expiration of his foreign student visa, Cruz Sr. applied for and received "political asylum" and was issued a "green card." A green card is a permit to reside and work in the United States, without becoming a "citizen" of the United States, in this case, under political asylum from Castro's Cuba. His citizenship status was that of a Cuban national living and working in the United States, under a green card work permit. According to US laws, the "green card" holder must maintain permanent resident status, and can be removed from the United States if certain conditions of this status are not met.
1964-1966 - Cruz Sr. takes a few odd jobs, marries and moves to Canada to work in the oil fields. The Cruz family resides in Canada for the next eight years. “I worked in Canada for eight years,” Rafael Cruz says. “And while I was in Canada, I became a Canadian citizen.” – (From and interview with NPR) "Peter Spiro, a legal expert on US citizenship at Temple University. Spiro says Rafael Cruz's multi-country odyssey did not follow traditional models for immigration. SPIRO - “Ted Cruz himself seems to be an advocate of those traditional immigration models. Maybe he should be a little more tolerant of the nontraditional Versions, given his own father's history.”
1970 - Ted Cruz is born in Canada, to two parents who had lived in Canada for at least four years at that time, and had applied for and received Canadian citizenship under Canadian Immigration and Naturalization Laws, as stated by Rafael Cruz. As a result, US statutes would have voided the prior "green card" status which requires among other things, permanent residency within the United States and obviously, not becoming a citizen of another country during the time frame of the US green card.

1974 - The Cruz family moves to the United States when Ted is approximately four years old. Rafael Cruz has publicly stated that he remained a citizen of Canada until he renounced his Canadian citizenship when he applied for and became a US Naturalized citizen in 2005. As a result, his wife and son were also Canadian citizens, his son being born a citizen of Canada in 1970.
2005 - Rafael Cruz applies for legal US citizenship and renounces his Canadian citizenship. No record of Ted renouncing his Canadian citizenship or applying for US citizenship exists as of 2005.
2013 - Freshman Senator Ted Cruz is a rising star in the Tea Party movement, and calls for him to run for the White House begin. In July, Ted Cruz is Questioned by the press about his interest in running for President, and the issue of his Canadian born citizenship is brought up Sen. Ted Cruz rejected questions Sunday over his eligibility to be president, saying that although he was born in Canada “the facts are clear” that he is a US citizen.
“My mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware. She is a US. citizen, so I'm a US citizen by birth,” Cruz told A&C. “I'm not going to engage in a legal debate.”
NOTE: Senator Cruz omits the part of his father's story, in particular, the part about his parents applying for and receiving Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth in Calgary. He also attempts to gloss past the actual definition of natural)born Citizen by implying it is a mere legal debate for others to figure out.

August 2013 - As Ted's political stock rises in the Tea Party, so do press questions about his eligibility for office. Ted decides to quiet the questions by releasing his birth certificate, which now becomes absolute proof of Ted's Canadian citizenship at birth, 1970, Calgary, Canada. The release of the Canadian birth records only serve to further fuel the controversy.

Ted seeks Legal Counsel, as the media is now pressing members of Canadian Immigration and Naturalization to clear the matter up, when instead, Canadian officials confirm the Ted Cruz was in fact born a legal citizen of Canada, the son of two parents who had also applied for and received Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth.
“He's a Canadian,” said Toronto lawyer Stephen Green, past chairman of the Canadian Bar Association's Citizenship and Immigration Section.
“Generally speaking, under the Citizenship Act of 1947, those born in Canada were automatically citizens at birth unless their parent was a foreign diplomat, ”said ministry spokeswoman Julie Lafortune.

Legal counsel advises Ted to "renounce his Canadian citizenship" in order to make himself eligible to run for the presidency. Of course, renouncing one's original citizenship only further proves one's original citizenship.

May 2014 - Ted Cruz legal counsel files to renounce Ted's Canadian citizenship in an effort to make him eligible to run for high office under the natural born Citizen clause Article II in the US Constitution.

AUSTIN, Texas - Canada-born US Sen. Ted Cruz has given up his citizenship from his birth country, making good on a promise from last summer. spokeswoman Catherine Frazier said “the Tea Party favorite formally gave up his citizenship May 14th. He received official confirmation of the action at his Houston home Tuesday.”

News that he had renounced his citizenship was first reported by the Dallas Morning News. The newspaper also bro$e that Cruz had dual Canadian) US citizenship when he released his birth certificate in August.

Frazier said Cruz “he is pleased to have the process finalized” and that it “makes sense he should be only an American citizen.”- of course, the Constitution does not require that one be only an American citizen, but rather a natural born Citizen.
As of February 4, 2015 - No evidence of any US Citizenship has been released to confirm anything at all about the true citizenship status of Ted Cruz.

Because Ted Cruz has been confirmed a legal citizen of Canada up until renouncing his Canadian citizenship in May of 2014, and because he has been confirmed a citizen of Canada at birth, and because his father is on public record stating that he and his wife became citizens of Canada during their eight years living in Canada and because Rafael Cruz remained a citizen of Canada until he renounced and applied for legal US citizenship in 2005. There is simply NO WAY that Ted Cruz was, is or ever can be a Natural Born Citizen of the United States eligible for the offices of President or Vice President.
So, does this mean that members of the Tea Party are engaged in an overt effort to defraud Tea Party members who are Ted fans, by all of this legal fancy foot work.

The facts are all well documented. You decide...

One who inherits their Citizenship at birth via nature alone, from their natural birth father, is a natural born Citizen of the United States. According to all available information on Ted Cruz and his family, Ted Cruz was a native born citizen of Canada and not a natural born Citizen of the United States. Now, Ted is either not too bright, or not too honest... But he is at least one of the two... and what about the Tea Party leaders behind this legal shell game?

State of Delaware vital records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson Cruz exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/256409078/Cruz-Citizenship-Timeline-documented

Ted Cruz Citizenship Timeline
State of Delaware Vital Records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson Cruz birth exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/anna-tomerlin/ted-cruz-citizenship-timeline/815852778451290
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When the "Republican" front runner and the Democrat are joining forces that should be a wake up call that Cruz is the one and only person the Establishment of Washington DC on both sides of the Isle fear and that makes me like him more and more. I'm done with the Republican Establishment and Cruz is the only who has and will continue to take them on.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When the "Republican" front runner and the Democrat are joining forces...

Do you know that this is happening? Got a link?

... Cruz is the one and only person the Establishment of Washington DC on both sides of the Isle fear and that makes me like him more and more....

You may be right, I WANT to believe that about him, and if he gets the nomination I'll vote for him, as of now.

... I'm done with the Republican Establishment...

Ditto.

.... and Cruz is the only who has and will continue to take them on.

...well, Trump is giving them fits right now, so I don't agree that Cruz is the 'only one' that can do it.
 
Last edited:

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes. The lies you posted not withstanding.

Oh chill out. I'm not attempting to willfully deceive anyone. You got a link/source/story for that birth certificate?

Ted Cruz pointing out how stupid birthers are. And that Trump's mother was born in Scotland. LOL!

You're stupid if you seriously believe Trump is stupid for bringing it up. It's a tactic, a ploy, to promulgate doubt among potential Cruz voters, and it may very well work.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
When the "Republican" front runner and the Democrat are joining forces that should be a wake up call that Cruz is the one and only person the Establishment of Washington DC on both sides of the Isle fear and that makes me like him more and more. I'm done with the Republican Establishment and Cruz is the only who has and will continue to take them on.

I think they were saying when the time comes, the Democrats would challenge it if Cruz were the nominee or became President.

Right now, no one really has any standing to rightfully bring a lawsuit because he hasn't won anything yet.

But I say again, the same folks who challenged Obama's birth should be the ones leading the call here as unlike Obama, they actually have proof that Cruz was not born in the United States.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Oh chill out. I'm not attempting to willfully deceive anyone. You got a link/source/story for that birth certificate?



You're stupid if you seriously believe Trump is stupid for bringing it up. It's a tactic, a ploy, to promulgate doubt among potential Cruz voters, and it may very well work.

May? It's working like a charm. And this bit about getting a declaratory judgment? Almost brilliant. If Cruz seeks one, it opens the door for uncertainty. And if he gets one, it's gonna be used to point out that true, blue Americans really don't want a question mark over their President where the SCOTUS had to vote to decide if he were eligible.

The people to whom Trump appeals, and there are more and more everyday coming out of the woodworks, aren't gonna go for that.
 
Top