Jack Lavictoire
New Member
I would like a good biblical teaching on the subject of eternal comdamnation so if you've done your home work on this topic please share it with me.
Thank you! :thumbs:
Thank you! :thumbs:
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Tell me about Hell
- Thread starter Jack Lavictoire
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Jack Lavictoire said:
Happy to.
#1. Lets start with Rev 14:10 where we see that the price of hell (fire and brimstone) is fully paid by the wicked IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy ones.
Which means WE will be there for the entire ordeal - seeing our loved ones tormented in the flames.
LITERALLY -
#2. Then lets go to Matt 10 where Christ said "Do not fear those who KILL the body but then are unnable to kill the soul. Rather fear Him who destroys (not just kills) BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".
And then we will go to Jude where we find that we already HAVE examples of literal people and their literal cities literally undergoing the literal punishment of literal "eternal fire".
Ready?
In Christ,
Bob
saturneptune
New Member
Its hot, and there are no short stays.
PrimePower7
New Member
Hi Jack
I guess I will be labeled the resident dispensationalist here and say Bob shared passages from the Gospels, Revelation and Jude, none of which prove to be the 13 books of our beloved apostle Paul..the spokesman for the church age.
That being said. I know I am going to receive several lashings from bystanders for this... not one time did the Apostle Paul in his 13 books and loads of speaking in Acts EVER mention Hell.
Jack, you asked the question. What do you think?
I guess I will be labeled the resident dispensationalist here and say Bob shared passages from the Gospels, Revelation and Jude, none of which prove to be the 13 books of our beloved apostle Paul..the spokesman for the church age.
That being said. I know I am going to receive several lashings from bystanders for this... not one time did the Apostle Paul in his 13 books and loads of speaking in Acts EVER mention Hell.
Jack, you asked the question. What do you think?
PrimePower7
New Member
Hi Jack
I guess I will be labeled the resident dispensationalist here and say Bob shared passages from the Gospels, Revelation and Jude, none of which prove to be the 13 books of our beloved apostle Paul..the spokesman for the church age.
That being said. I know I am going to receive several lashings from bystanders for this... not one time did the Apostle Paul in his 13 books and loads of speaking in Acts EVER mention Hell.
Jack, you asked the question. What do you think?
I guess I will be labeled the resident dispensationalist here and say Bob shared passages from the Gospels, Revelation and Jude, none of which prove to be the 13 books of our beloved apostle Paul..the spokesman for the church age.
That being said. I know I am going to receive several lashings from bystanders for this... not one time did the Apostle Paul in his 13 books and loads of speaking in Acts EVER mention Hell.
Jack, you asked the question. What do you think?
Jack Lavictoire
New Member
PrimePower7 said:
Ah but Paul did talk about Hell!
2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (New International Version)
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Romans 2:6-8 (New International Version)
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Everlasting destruction means for ever and ever... Without end!
To me it's called Justice.
But for His grace there go I... :thumbs:
PrimePower7
New Member
Hi Jack
Actually, Paul did not mention "Hell" in either one of those. He mentioned "everlasting destruction" in your Thessalonians passage. Could this not mean that you are destroyed forever?
"Wrath" and "anger" in Romans 2 are without a doubt what a person who goes to judgement unprepared will receive from God. However, it is very difficult to say Paul formed a doctrine here on "Hell".
Use any concordance with any version and my point is true after all. Paul did not mention "Hell".
But, Jack, do not hear what I am not saying. I did not say the wicked are not punished and that is all the 2 passages you spoke of prove.
Thanks for your time and response. I remain correctable by His Word.
Actually, Paul did not mention "Hell" in either one of those. He mentioned "everlasting destruction" in your Thessalonians passage. Could this not mean that you are destroyed forever?
"Wrath" and "anger" in Romans 2 are without a doubt what a person who goes to judgement unprepared will receive from God. However, it is very difficult to say Paul formed a doctrine here on "Hell".
Use any concordance with any version and my point is true after all. Paul did not mention "Hell".
But, Jack, do not hear what I am not saying. I did not say the wicked are not punished and that is all the 2 passages you spoke of prove.
Thanks for your time and response. I remain correctable by His Word.
PrimePower7
New Member
Bob
Thanks for your response inspite of your wisecrack. Just understand that I am as sincere as you are and I believe all of my Bible as much as you do before you start cutting on me and my "small Bible".
I do believe John is right, of course. I also believe you are right. I'll be honest with you, Bob. I wonder how we can pass people by every day who are good candidates to miss Hell in view of the fact we believe in it.
The thought is so mindboggling and tormenting to me that I consider other ways of looking at it. Why would Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles not even use the Greek word for "Hell" except when giving general reference to the grave in 1 Corinthians 15? I just wonder a little if "Hell" as we know it in the Bible has some Jewish ramifications to it. What do I mean? I wonder if we understand the way they did in Bible times?
Thanks for your response inspite of your wisecrack. Just understand that I am as sincere as you are and I believe all of my Bible as much as you do before you start cutting on me and my "small Bible".
I do believe John is right, of course. I also believe you are right. I'll be honest with you, Bob. I wonder how we can pass people by every day who are good candidates to miss Hell in view of the fact we believe in it.
The thought is so mindboggling and tormenting to me that I consider other ways of looking at it. Why would Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles not even use the Greek word for "Hell" except when giving general reference to the grave in 1 Corinthians 15? I just wonder a little if "Hell" as we know it in the Bible has some Jewish ramifications to it. What do I mean? I wonder if we understand the way they did in Bible times?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
A. - I agree with you that the popularization of "hell" today does not reflect the Bible meaning - but rather a greek pagan concept. This may be why Paul does not use the term.
B. - I also agree that in any case - Hell is a real place with real fire that burns real people - and we "should" be really motivated out of "Love for our neighbor as ourselves" to share the good news of the Gospel.
C. You are right - my Bible has 66 books -
D. IN Matt 10 we see that "Both" body AND soul are "destroyed" in the fires of hell. So we see both physical and spiritual components of this very REAL event that happens in a very REAL place.
E. In Jude we see that real cities are really shown as real examples of undergoing the "punishment" of "eternal fire". That means we can go over there and see what happened.
F. Rev 14:10 (and Johnathan Edwards agrees with this apparently) says that God will cause the torment and suffering of those in hell to take place "IN THE PRESENCE" of the LAMB and of those that are wITH the Lamb! That means we will see our precious loved ones burning and in torment the entire time. (As Edwards agrees). But UNLIKE Edward's view of it - the Bible does not indicate that this will be a time of "joy" for us in the least!
G. In Rev 20 we see that in the 2nd resurrection "ALL" the REST of the dead (those that are not righteous and included in the rapture resurrection of the FIRST resurrection) are raised AFTER the 1000 years and these are then judged and burned as they surround the camp of the saints. The saints ARE THERE. The wicked are cast into the REAL lake of fire. The fire is on earth. 2Peter 3 tells us that the present earth is reserved for destruction of the ungodly by fire.
But THEN there is the RECREATION of the earth - the NEW EARTH that renews the Earth. Wipes out the evidences of sin and that is our home. Paradise restored as David Jeremiah refers to it.
In Christ,
Bob
B. - I also agree that in any case - Hell is a real place with real fire that burns real people - and we "should" be really motivated out of "Love for our neighbor as ourselves" to share the good news of the Gospel.
C. You are right - my Bible has 66 books -
D. IN Matt 10 we see that "Both" body AND soul are "destroyed" in the fires of hell. So we see both physical and spiritual components of this very REAL event that happens in a very REAL place.
E. In Jude we see that real cities are really shown as real examples of undergoing the "punishment" of "eternal fire". That means we can go over there and see what happened.
F. Rev 14:10 (and Johnathan Edwards agrees with this apparently) says that God will cause the torment and suffering of those in hell to take place "IN THE PRESENCE" of the LAMB and of those that are wITH the Lamb! That means we will see our precious loved ones burning and in torment the entire time. (As Edwards agrees). But UNLIKE Edward's view of it - the Bible does not indicate that this will be a time of "joy" for us in the least!
G. In Rev 20 we see that in the 2nd resurrection "ALL" the REST of the dead (those that are not righteous and included in the rapture resurrection of the FIRST resurrection) are raised AFTER the 1000 years and these are then judged and burned as they surround the camp of the saints. The saints ARE THERE. The wicked are cast into the REAL lake of fire. The fire is on earth. 2Peter 3 tells us that the present earth is reserved for destruction of the ungodly by fire.
But THEN there is the RECREATION of the earth - the NEW EARTH that renews the Earth. Wipes out the evidences of sin and that is our home. Paradise restored as David Jeremiah refers to it.
In Christ,
Bob
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PrimePower7
New Member
Hey Bob
Very interesting. I don't think I have ever seen 2 Peter 3 in that light. I just read it and don't see any problem with what you are saying.
Given your SDA background, I believe you are saying that the Lake of Fire does not last forever. Am I right? I mean, if the Lake of Fire is the old Heavens and Earth being destroyed and they are recreated as the New, then where did the Lake of Fire go?
You said, "But THEN there is the RECREATION of the earth - the NEW EARTH that renews the Earth. Wipes out the evidences of sin and that is our home. Paradise restored as David Jeremiah refers to it"
So, this is what you're saying, right?
Very interesting. I don't think I have ever seen 2 Peter 3 in that light. I just read it and don't see any problem with what you are saying.
Given your SDA background, I believe you are saying that the Lake of Fire does not last forever. Am I right? I mean, if the Lake of Fire is the old Heavens and Earth being destroyed and they are recreated as the New, then where did the Lake of Fire go?
You said, "But THEN there is the RECREATION of the earth - the NEW EARTH that renews the Earth. Wipes out the evidences of sin and that is our home. Paradise restored as David Jeremiah refers to it"
So, this is what you're saying, right?
Here is a very good but lengthy article about hell. Hope it helps.
http://www.dougbeaumont.org/SoulDevice/writings_hell.html
http://www.dougbeaumont.org/SoulDevice/writings_hell.html
PrimePower7
New Member
Smoke of Torment that ascends forever
Bob Ryan, What do you think of this Scripture. A gentleman brought it up to me as a proof text that sinners are indeed tormented forever in the Lake of Fire.
Bob Ryan, What do you think of this Scripture. A gentleman brought it up to me as a proof text that sinners are indeed tormented forever in the Lake of Fire.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
PrimePower7 said:
First of all - I agree with you that the text in Rev 20 is not ideal for the view that I find in scripture in most cases.
(Hint: It does no good to "pretend" that every text is worded perfectly for your POV no matter what it says - as you find some doing on this message board)
The term "foreve" can be somthing like "Completely" - as we see in the following examples. The question is - is that what it means in Rev 20??
========================== Forever as "completely"
In the book of Habbakuk chapter 3: verse 6 it is stated that "the everlasting mountains were scatterred and the perpetual hills did bow" . If the mountains discussed in this verse actually lasted forever --then how could they be scatterred (removed out of their place) ?
Jonah describes his experience of being inside the fish as being an experience that lasted forever "I went down to the bottom of the mountains the earth with her bars was about me FOREVER--" , yet we know from
elsewhere in the book of Jonah that Jonah was NOT in the belly of the fish forever.
In Isaiah 34 :5-15 it is interesting that the prophet describes a future punishment of the nation of Edom as involving the land being set ablaze where, "The streams thereof shall be turned into burning pitch and the dust into brimstone, and the land shall become burning pitch.It shall NOT be quenched night nor day ; the smoke thereof will go up forever" Isaiah 34:verses 9-10 (This verse is remarkably similar to a description of a
firey punishment in the book of Revelation where a similar phrase is used) but then it goes on in the next couple of verses to describe birds coming to live there and thorny plants taking root there ---an unlikely thing to happen if the imagery of Isaiah 34 describes literal endles burning of the Land of Edom ".
=================================================
In Rev 14:10 we ALSO see the fire and brimstone of the lake of fire -- along with the "torment of the wicked" in that 2nd death punishment of fire - and it is "forever" -- but the text says clearly that this "forever" punishment takes place in its entirety "IN the Presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" - as Johnathan Ewards observes WE WILL BE THERE to see the torment of our loved ones -- ALL OF IT!!
Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”
Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”
Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”[/b]. So [b]eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone[/b] and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”
Marcia
Active Member
PrimePower7 said:
Hell is "everlasting destruction." I think it's one of the best terms for it in the Bible. You are separated from the source of life, God, and go into eternal destruction/death mode. If it's everlasting destruction, it is not annihilation.
Annihilation is not much of a punishment if you are no conscious of it. Just ask any atheist, materialist, some Wiccans and witches (who do not believe in Summerland or reincarnation) or other persons who believe in annihilation. It doesn't bother them at all to think they will just be zapped into non-existence at death.
The Bible does not teach that we are zapped into non existence at death...
Lk:12:47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk:12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The Bible teaches there will be the second death (DEATH means DEATH) and that some will be punished longer than others before being annihilated.
Claudia
Lk:12:47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk:12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The Bible teaches there will be the second death (DEATH means DEATH) and that some will be punished longer than others before being annihilated.
Claudia
PrimePower7
New Member
Cults!
Claudia,
I am on line with your train of thought. These other dear folks miss the point that we don't believe someone is annihilated at death, rather after the Great White Throne. I appreciate your thoughts. Same to you Bob. I am checking it out now!
Bill
Claudia,
I am on line with your train of thought. These other dear folks miss the point that we don't believe someone is annihilated at death, rather after the Great White Throne. I appreciate your thoughts. Same to you Bob. I am checking it out now!
Bill