• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ten Commandments Pre cross - Questions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Amy.G

New Member
I have brethren in our church that says the same about the Commandments but when I begin to take them through them one at a time, they agree we can't do those things and serve God, but they want to call them the "Law of Christ". Well, call them what you like, as long as you keep them.
Well, I'm glad to see that they're still your brethren! Maybe that makes me your brethreness?:laugh: I do not think at all that it is ok to sin. Far from it! I try to please my Lord, but I fail sometimes. Well, actually many times. When Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, that encompassed the 9 :) commandments. The Sabbath is not part of the NT church. Worshiping the Lord is, but it does not matter what day and no laws are associated with it. That is why we cannot be under the law anymore, for to break one is to break them all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Under the New Covenant that LAW "written on Tablets of Stone" is "written on the tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3.

That does not mean that we will always choose to avail ourselves of the promises God has provided "For HE IS FAITHFUL who will not allow you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able" 1Cor 10...

The fact that you like Paul WANT to submit to God's Commandments - shows that your heart is born again..

the fact that you CAN wALK by the spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh "for real" according to Romans 8 shows that the gospel Good news works -- "all of it" -- not just "some of it". In Romans 6 Paul calls this freedom from "slavery to sin" and sinning.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Bro. Bob, what about the Sabbath? You still have not answered that one. Do you keep the OT Sabbath, following the laws that it requires? What you really mean is you keep the 9 commandments.

D.L. Moody has an interesting teaching on Christ's 10 Commandments and even on His 4th Commandment -
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Bro. Bob, what about the Sabbath? You still have not answered that one. Do you keep the OT Sabbath, following the laws that it requires? What you really mean is you keep the 9 commandments.

The curious thing is this - beyond all the hoopla debating back and forth over the Ten Commandments and trying to either get rid of them or not -- is the ONE commandment where those who try to sidestep them show what their real issue is....

I note that Amy does not say "well Bob if you are going to say you APPROVE of the Ten Commandments and they aRE FOR God's People - then what about murder -- are you sure you want to really give that up?"... that "kind of question" is not asked about ANY of them (as if rebellion was to be cherished) EXCEPT for the 4th commandment.

But the quesiton is "why"? -- Why does the fear of obedience to THIS one commandment shadow the entire discussion? What is considered so horrible about the thought of yielding to Christ on this one commandment more than any of the others???

In Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In this sequence it is clearly seen that the NT authors endorse the Ten Commandments BOTH pre-cross and post-cross.



BobRyan said:
Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to[b] destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[/b]

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.



I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Ephesians 6
1
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the
first commandment with a promise
),
3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Well, I'm glad to see that they're still your brethren! Maybe that makes me your brethreness?:laugh: I do not think at all that it is ok to sin. Far from it! I try to please my Lord, but I fail sometimes. Well, actually many times. When Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, that encompassed the 9 :) commandments. The Sabbath is not part of the NT church. Worshiping the Lord is, but it does not matter what day and no laws are associated with it. That is why we cannot be under the law anymore, for to break one is to break them all.
I find it sad that someone would find what they consider a flaw in one of the Commandments of which I do not agree with but use that to do away with all of them, when adultery is involved, killing is involved, stealing is involved SIN is involved, but because they say they can't keep the Sabbath then that sets them free to break the rest.

Again, maybe that is why we have so many going astray, because of the false message being taught. Do you teach your own children that or do you tell them not to steal, not to lie, not to kill, do you by chance use the commandments to teach your children? I will be interested in your answer.
 

rbell

Active Member
It's clear to me...
  • That some here have determined there is a "two-tiered" structure of God's laws. They have determined the "Big Ten" is more important than the others...disregarding the message of the Sermon on the Mount.
  • Some here claim "perfection." They have to, because in their system, one who breaks one of the Ten Commandments is not a Christian. Thus, it is critical for them to acheive "perfection." Never mind that this goes against scripture (1 John 1:8), and that it turns salvation into a works/faith hybrid...because it's no longer all about Christ.
    • In claiming absolute obedience, not only is 1 John 1:8 disregarded, but IMO pride can become a serious issue (see "Pharisee and Publican" story).
  • Those who have honestly answered the question, "Have you sinned since becoming a Christian?" (not all are willing to answer it; kind of ironic), because they insist the "Big Ten" are "unbreakable," must either:
    • Develop a "two-tiered" system of offenses; and
    • Explain away why one sin is less greivous than another (which diminishes God's holiness if He can tolerate "some" sins better than others).
  • Some go by a misguided notion of "perfection." It seems that this is a KJVO problem...they aren't willing to understand perfection as maturity, and look at it as sinlessness...which once again goes against Scripture.
  • They have to torture the accounts of God's people...because if they're Christians, there's no way they could ever sin (Like Peter denying Christ...SFIC probably pulled a hamstring tying his logic in knots on that one).
The further this thread has gone, the more tortured the logic has become.

Now...go ahead and make the claim (though I've explained my disdain for sin several times) that somehow I must enjoy sin, or I coddle it, or I'm pro-sin, etc.

So...(sigh)...I'll say it again:

Would to God that we would realize that all sin is an affront to a Holy God. May we all look at sin as He does, and turn from it as He would desire.
 

rbell

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
do you by chance use the commandments to teach your children? I will be interested in your answer.

Yes...a qualified yes.

I try to do as Jesus did...and go further than "the Big Ten."

See the Sermon on the Mount for more...
 

Amy.G

New Member
Brother Bob said:
I find it sad that someone would find what they consider a flaw in one of the Commandments of which I do not agree with but use that to do away with all of them, when adultery is involved, killing is involved, stealing is involved SIN is involved, but because they say they can't keep the Sabbath then that sets them free to break the rest.

Again, maybe that is why we have so many going astray, because of the false message being taught. Do you teach your own children that or do you tell them not to steal, not to lie, not to kill, do you by chance use the commandments to teach your children? I will be interested in your answer.
If we love our neighbor as ourself, then we won't murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, ect. will we? I have never said sin was ok. And there were no flaws in the commandments. They were perfect, but they only showed us what sin is. They confirmed our guilt. They are not able to save us. Christ fulfilled all of them in that He took our guilt upon Himself.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
God’s Commandments = Christ’s Commandments

John 12
44 And Jesus cried out and said, "" He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 "" He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
46 "" I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 ""If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 "" He who rejects
Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke
is what will judge him at the last day.
49 ""
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 ""I know that
His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.''

John 14
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 ""I know that His commandment is eternal life;
therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.''
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
rbell said:
It's clear to me...
  • That some here have determined there is a "two-tiered" structure of God's laws. They have determined the "Big Ten" is more important than the others...disregarding the message of the Sermon on the Mount.
Some here claim "perfection." They have to, because in their system, one who breaks one of the Ten Commandments is not a Christian. Thus, it is critical for them to acheive "perfection." Never mind that this goes against scripture (1 John 1:8), and that it turns salvation into a works/faith hybrid...because it's no longer all about Christ.
  • In claiming absolute obedience, not only is 1 John 1:8 disregarded, but IMO pride can become a serious issue (see "Pharisee and Publican" story).

It is not clear to me that any of that is correct - at all. Not sure whose position you are trying to represent - but it was not posted here.

Those who have honestly answered the question, "Have you sinned since becoming a Christian?" (not all are willing to answer it; kind of ironic), because they insist the "Big Ten" are "unbreakable," must either:

  • Develop a "two-tiered" system of offenses; and
  • Explain away why one sin is less greivous than another (which diminishes God's holiness if He can tolerate "some" sins better than others).

It is not true that to submit to and honor the Ten Commandments you have to first be sinless. "THE LAW of God is written on the tablets of the human heart" under the new covenant.

The REAL law of God - that includes the one "written on tablets of stone" according to 2Cor 3.

One does not need to be sinless to be a Christian. "And if anyone sins we HAVE an advocate with the FAther".

But you can not "embrace rebellion" as your desired goal.

In Christ,

Bob
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
D.L. Moody has an interesting teaching on Christ's 10 Commandments and even on His 4th Commandment -
It's a moot point since the Sabbath Moody was referring to was Sunday, and not Saturday. That kinda defeats your argument. You really should stop using him as an example of your defense for the Sabbath. He doesn't defend the Sabbath (Saturday). And when you say that he does you are being deceitful and slanderous.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Brother Bob said:
I find it sad that someone would find what they consider a flaw in one of the Commandments of which I do not agree with but use that to do away with all of them, when adultery is involved, killing is involved, stealing is involved SIN is involved, but because they say they can't keep the Sabbath then that sets them free to break the rest.
You have lost a sense of the holiness of God, as someone else has already pointed out.
I have pointed out to you many times that God is no respector of persons. He does not differentiate between sins, as the Catholic Church does, and as you do. Really you ought to join the Catholic Church if you keep on dividing sin as you do: mortal and venial; The Big Ten, and the little sins; the sins unto death, and the sins not unto death. Bob this is ridiculous. Do you have a Baptist Purgatory to go along with your theology as well.

How does God look at sin:

Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
--What is evil? What is iniquity?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

What does Paul mean: "Is your obedience fulfilled?" I don't think it is Bob.
You must be able to revenge all disobedience, which implies you must have disobedience to revenge. It means, you, a Christian, disobey God, and that disobedience must be brought into obedience. You can't live in a state of obedience.

In verse 5 we are commanded to cast down imaginations and everything that exalts itself against God, bringing into captivity every thouht to the obedience of Christ. Is your mind so pure that you can say with all truthfulness that you have brought all of your thoughts to the obedience of Christ.

One sin is as bad as another. There are no "good sins." If you tell a lie it is just as bad as committing murder or adultery. There is no difference with God. Sin is a transgression of the law. Murder and lying are alike. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt bring every thought into obedience of Jesus Christ. They are all commands. There is no difference. Break one, break them all. Sin is sin. Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of breaking all the law. And that speaks of you.
 

grahame

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
We know according to God's Word that His commandments are not grievous.

The commandments that were spoken of man not bearing were different than the Ten Commandmetns. Peter was there when Jesus told the rich man to'Keep these and thou shalt live'. Peter knew the importance of Jesus instructions that day.
Well, not according to the texts I quoted. It it very clear what they were talking about, because of what follows.
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
 

grahame

New Member
Brother Bob said:
I think Jesus made a few adjustments about keeping the Sabbath. Anyway, why not answer the following scripture instead of excuses? I know you have read this scripture and was wondering how you dismiss it? There are plenty others to go with it.

1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
When Christ came into the world and when he died on the cross and rose again the third day, the world changed entirely. Before folk were saved by the keeping of the Law. Not by the keeping of the commandments, for the commandments could not bring life, only death. In that as soon as a person broke just one of those commandments they became guilty of all. For the Commandments were and still are God's absolute standard for the sons of men and if any one of these commandments were broken, then that meant death.

But God also provided a way of atonement. That part of the law where the Jews had to sacrifice a lamb to atone for their sins. Moreover, salvation was only possible through the Jews, God's chosen race for this purpose. For Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews".

When Christ came however, things changed. His coming heralded salvation through grace and through his precious blood which he shed on the Cross at Calvary. For we are told, "The Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The commandments still remain, for they are God's ultimate standard for man and they will remain until the end of time.

But we are told, " the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." No one was ever justified by the works of the law and never shall be, for we are under grace. For again we are told, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." and also "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works", and the reason? "lest any man should boast." And again "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."
But here is the wonderful thing that has happened with the coming of our blessed Lord Jesus "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

So it is evident that from the Scriptures that no man is saved by works, or by the keeping of any part of the Old Testament Law. For if that were so, then not only would we be debters to the whole of the Law. But we would also be under obligation to enter salvation through the Jewish race and most of us here I should think, judging by the way we are talking, are not Jews.

But having said all that, folk are right when they say that his commandments are not grievous. Not only those we call the "Ten Commandments". But also the commandments and words of Jesus that we received from the beginning.
But my dear friends we are also told the manner of keeping these commandments. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." This is significant that the apostle should emphasise this table of commandments and not the first table. Because it is here at this very point that our sincerity shows. For most of us can feign love towards God and we can make a great show of religion and of our devotion towards God etc. But here is where it tells if his commandments are not grievous or if they are. Here is where heart religion comes into its own.

True, if we are Christians, then his commandments are truly not grievous to us. But neither can we glory before God for keeping them. For we shall never be acceptable to Him if we rely upon them for salvation. For if we rely upon the commandments to save our souls, then we I am afraid will be bitterly disappointed on judgement day. For it is Christ alone who has saved us from the curse of the law and we can never again be condemned by the law. For we have passed from death unto life.

My dear friends, Paul the apostle wrote these words, "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

The law is right and good if we keep it in its proper place. Our salvation is not dependent on the keeping of it. If it were, then I'm afraid we are all lost. But it is written that "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Not that we should keep them in a legalistic way as the unlightened Jews (not all Jews were unenlightened) and trust in those laws to save us. For that was never their purpose and never will be. But to keep them in a spiritual way in our hearts. And above all to demonstrate that we love his commandments by our love for one another. For by this commandment the world shall know that we are his disciples.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

EdSutton

New Member
rbell said:
It's clear to me...

The further this thread has gone, the more tortured the logic has become.
And all this time I thought I was the only one who'd really noticed. :rolleyes: :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed
 

Brother Bob

New Member
The law is right and good if we keep it in its proper place. Our salvation is not dependent on the keeping of it. If it were, then I'm afraid we are all lost. But it is written that "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Not that we should keep them in a legalistic way as the unlightened Jews (not all Jews were unenlightened) and trust in those laws to save us. For that was never their purpose and never will be. But to keep them in a spiritual way in our hearts. And above all to demonstrate that we love his commandments by our love for one another. For by this commandment the world shall know that we are his disciples.
I agree with every word you said if I read you correctly. If I gave anyone the impression that the Law would give Life then it is not what I meant in any way.

I believe to be free from the Law is through the blood of Christ.
I believe to not be under the curse of the Law is by the blood of Christ and that is because He put them in our hearts and our minds but never did they save us.

Does being under the blood of Christ mean that the Law was of none effect, God forbid for sin is transgression of the Law which is the curse of the Law and we have been delivered from sin by the blood of Christ and not delivered so we CAN sin.

So believe on this board and DHK is one of them that we are able to break any Law of God we wish and it will not condemn us. That is heresy.

Who else on here said I had lost my holiness by saying we should not sin? God forbid that a man would say such trash of God's word.

For the Commandments were and still are God's absolute standard for the sons of men and if any one of these commandments were broken, then that meant death.
Again, I found nothing in your post that I have not been saying all along.

DHK; God forbid that I ever teach men that they can die in the act of adultery and still go to Heaven and sing with angels. You have missed the whole point of what being a Christian is. I have never heard it to be Baptist doctrine that you can die as a murderer and still goe to Heaven. Anyone who advocates such doctrine is not a teacher of the word and does not preach the Gospel.

<<<EDIT>>>> I may not agree with this. All depend on when you think the schoolmaster was changed. When we accepted Christ or over 2000 years ago? I believe it is when we have Christ in our lives then are we no longer under the schoolmaster.
But we are told, " the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." No one was ever justified by the works of the law and never shall be, for we are under grace. For again we are told, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." and also "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works", and the reason? "lest any man should boast." And again "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."
But here is the wonderful thing that has happened with the coming of our blessed Lord Jesus "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

Did this happen when Christ came into our lives or are you saying it happened 2000+ years ago? I say it happens when we are born again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brother Bob

New Member
If we love our neighbor as ourself, then we won't murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, ect. will we? I have never said sin was ok. And there were no flaws in the commandments. They were perfect, but they only showed us what sin is. They confirmed our guilt. They are not able to save us. Christ fulfilled all of them in that He took our guilt upon Himself.
Amy; no where will you find that I said the Law saves us. I am glad to find you still think breaking them is sin. That is what I been saying all along. DHK is the one making statements as if they were my statements but they are not. It is just him trying to get around saying "you can die in the act of adultery and still go to Heaven and sing with the angels". I don't blame him, I would try and distance myself from such a statement also.

Because we are free from the curse of the Law is because We belong to Jesus now and He will keep us and deliver us and adultery is a thing before the blood.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
do you by chance use the commandments to teach your children? I will be interested in your answer.


Yes...a qualified yes.

I try to do as Jesus did...and go further than "the Big Ten."

See the Sermon on the Mount for more...

Rbell; Glad to see you think breaking them is sin also.

No one on here is saying the Law saves us that I have read.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Brother Bob said:
DHK; God forbid that I ever teach men that they can die in the act of adultery and still go to Heaven and sing with angels. You have missed the whole point of what being a Christian is. I have never heard it to be Baptist doctrine that you can die as a murderer and still goe to Heaven. Anyone who advocates such doctrine is not a teacher of the word and does not preach the Gospel.
It has been shown that we aren't perfect.
So, what kind of unconfessed sin would God accept if you were to die of a sudden heart attack? an unconfessed lie? an unconfessed thought that was not pure in motive? Would those sins keep you out of heaven if not confessed?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top