That Nagging Problem

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

There is problem that will not go away. If ones sins were forgiven and paid for on the cross and all is finished as the literal payment would present it, what matters if one believes or not? If the literal payment theory is true, and all is finished, all is finished. Can one’s refusal to accept or refusal to believe undo what is ‘finished’ by God? Can one by his own will’s rejection of a gift, undo what that is represented by the literal payment theory as set in stone never to be changed or altered?

 

[Scarlett O.]

There is problem that will not go away. If ones sins were forgiven and paid for on the cross and all is finished as the literal payment would present it, what matters if one believes or not?

Because God said that it matters. "Confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved."

Our belief didn't and doesn't finish anything. We have no part in saving ourselves. Jesus obediently finishing God's work for Him on the cross was between The Son and The Father. "It is finished!" What is finished? God's plan for His Son's substitutionary death and His plans for redemption or purchasing His children.

If the literal payment theory is true, and all is finished, all is finished.

Jesus didn't say, "All is finished." He said, "It is finished." If all were finished then, we wouldn't be having this conversation on the BB. We would be on our faces in Heaven crying out "Holy! Holy! Holy!"

The blood purchase was made. And no other blood purchase ever has to be made again.....ever.

But, God is still calling his own to repentance and belief on Him who made the final sacrifice.

So while the Purchase is finished, all of God's work in the lives of people is not quite finished.

Can one’s refusal to accept or refusal to believe undo what is ‘finished’ by God?

Not even in our wildest imaginations. Those who die and go to hell because of unbelief have undone nothing. In fact, their going to hell simply proves that God's plan is unalterable.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: God's plan is unalterable.

HP: That sounds a lot like the Calvinism I have always known. Forget free will. Forget this nonsense of man needing to believe or repent. We are on God's merry-go-round of necessitated fatalism. All according to plan. If we do, it is because it was necessitated to happen. If we don't why should we wonder? Can we be expected to possess the abilities to alter necessity?

Let me ask you. Could any be lost that Christ has paid the sin debt for? Can and be saved that Christ did not pay the sin debt of? Was that all decided in it's finality on the cross before we ever were born?

 

[Scarlett O.]

HP: That sounds a lot like the Calvinism I have always known.

Yikes!! I'm definitely not a Calvinist! :laugh:

Let me ask you. Could any be lost that Christ has paid the sin debt for?

Yes, in fact, right now hell is full of those very people. When Jesus Christ paid the sin debt or the blood debt, it did not make us automatically saved. His death on the cross is not what makes us saved. If so, then we are all born saved. His death is what made is possible for us TO be saved. The only possibility. His sinless life and sacrificial death opens the door for us to be in a relationship with God, the Father just as He is in a relationship with God the Father. The bible says that we are co-heirs with Christ.

But the bible says that one also has to confess, believe, and repent.

Can any be saved that Christ did not pay the sin debt of?

No. That is an impossibility.

Was that all decided in it's finality on the cross before we ever were born?

Jesus Christ, slain from the foundation of the world. He was the Chosen Sacrifice before God ever said, "Let there be Light."

God the Father - whom He did foreknow, He did forelove. God knew those who would believe and enter into a relationship with Him before He created the angels. And He loved us even then.

It's not that our "fate" was decided in it's finality on the cross before we were ever born. It's that our opportunity for a relationship with God was finalized before we were ever born.

 

[BobRyan]

There is problem that will not go away. If ones sins were forgiven and paid for on the cross and all is finished as the literal payment would present it, what matters if one believes or not? If the literal payment theory is true, and all is finished, all is finished. Can one’s refusal to accept or refusal to believe undo what is ‘finished’ by God? Can one by his own will’s rejection of a gift, undo what that is represented by the literal payment theory as set in stone never to be changed or altered?

I realize this is another one of those cases where we do not agree -- but here is the solution.

#1. you are right that IF the payment transaction is complete -- not just the "Atoning Sacrifice" as defined in 1John 2:2 (NIV) and Lev 16 the point of sin offering being slain -- but ALSO the entire PROCESS of Lev 16 including all of the work that Christ does as our High Priest... If all that was completed at the cross (no matter what the High Priestly role of Christ is in heaven in Heb 8-10) then all payment is not only made but the specific individual debt is fully resolved.

No other sin/debt or even payment transactions are possible after that.

2. But the solution is in Lev 16 and Heb 8-10 -- so while the 1John 2:2 atoning Sacrifice is completed at the Cross - it is not true that the High Priestly work of Christ ended at the cross - or that the Lev 16 work of the High Priest is not the work of Christ in the process of atonement.

Because of that -- the payment is literal but is not applied individually until Christ as our High Priest does the transaction for each one of us - person by person.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Helen]

There is problem that will not go away. If ones sins were forgiven and paid for on the cross and all is finished as the literal payment would present it, what matters if one believes or not? If the literal payment theory is true, and all is finished, all is finished. Can one’s refusal to accept or refusal to believe undo what is ‘finished’ by God? Can one by his own will’s rejection of a gift, undo what that is represented by the literal payment theory as set in stone never to be changed or altered?

All sins were paid for on the cross, but not forgiven there. Hebrews 2 tells us Christ tasted death for every man, and the wages of sin are death. So all sins were paid for.

But that is a legal thing.

Forgiveness is entirely different. A murderer may be tried and sent to death row and executed. That has nothing to do with whether the victim's family and friends forgive him, or even whether the murderer repented.

God accomplished the legal side of things for us. But the relationship side of things is intensely personal. It is made possible by atonment having been accomplished by Christ. But salvation is something personal, not an automatic thing. It would have been impossible without atonement, but it is not at all the same thing as atonement.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: BR, do you not in the end still have Christ literally paying for a specific amount of debt for a specific group of individuals?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes -- but it is a two stage process.

1. Payment is made --

2. Payment is applied.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Helen: God accomplished the legal side of things for us. But the relationship side of things is intensely personal. It is made possible by atonement having been accomplished by Christ. But salvation is something personal, not an automatic thing. It would have been impossible without atonement, but it is not at all the same thing as atonement.

HP: I like what you have to say.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Yes -- but it is a two stage process.

1. Payment is made --

2. Payment is applied.

in Christ,

HP: How is the end of your argument any less fatalistic than that of say a Calvinist?

 

[BobRyan]

The Calvinist gets to the same point as I do -- but they do it 2000 years ago claiming that the full work of the High Priest in the Atonement process of Lev 16 completes BEFORE the Work Of Christ as High Priest EVEN STARTS according to Heb 8-10.

So they start "with the story over" and you have the pre-booked in/out problem that you are identifying here.

In my view the work of Christ as High Priest Heb 8-10 IS accepted in the Lev 16 model for atonement and though the "atoning SACRIFICE" 1John 2:2 NIV is complete - the work of High Priest in applying that benefit continues today.

But as Daniel 7 points out -- some day the BOOKS ARE CLOSED and when that happens the 2nd coming takes place according to Dan 7.

EVEN in your view - at the 2nd coming - there is no "switching around" the deed is done, the books are closed...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The Calvinist gets to the same point as I do -- but they do it 2000 years ago

HP: If it sounds like necessity, walks like necessity and looks like necessity, it most likely is necessity. How can you avoid your position from being viewed as such? How would you go about convincing one that your view is something other than necessitated fatalism?

 

[Tom Butler]

Because God said that it matters. "Confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved."

Our belief didn't and doesn't finish anything. We have no part in saving ourselves. Jesus obediently finishing God's work for Him on the cross was between The Son and The Father. "It is finished!" What is finished? God's plan for His Son's substitutionary death and His plans for redemption or purchasing His children.



Jesus didn't say, "All is finished." He said, "It is finished." If all were finished then, we wouldn't be having this conversation on the BB. We would be on our faces in Heaven crying out "Holy! Holy! Holy!"

The blood purchase was made. And no other blood purchase ever has to be made again.....ever.

But, God is still calling his own to repentance and belief on Him who made the final sacrifice.

So while the Purchase is finished, all of God's work in the lives of people is not quite finished..

Scarlett, I couldn't say it any better. So I won't.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me ask you. Could any be lost that Christ has paid the sin debt for? Can and be saved that Christ did not pay the sin debt of? Was that all decided in it's finality on the cross before we ever were born?

The answer to Questions 1 and 2 is no.
The answer to Question 3 is no and yes. No, not on the cross. Yes, from eternity.

 

[Dustin]

HP: If it sounds like necessity, walks like necessity and looks like necessity, it most likely is necessity. How can you avoid your position from being viewed as such? How would you go about convincing one that your view is something other than necessitated fatalism?

First of all, consistent Calvinism is not fatalism. Fatalism is some ancient pagan belief that things just "happen" because that's the universal order that comes to pass.

Conversly, I affirm divine determinism. I believe God, who is out of time and above any earthly law, has already determined the end from the beginning as Scripture says. We, his creation, experiance this in time. As far as God is concearned, it's already done, because He has willed it and not even a hair from your head falls apart from his determination.

Fatalism is just too weak.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: First of all, consistent Calvinism is not fatalism. Fatalism is some ancient pagan belief that things just "happen" because that's the universal order that comes to pass.

HP: Fatalism simply denotes a system that the outcome has been pre-decided as to what is to happen without regard to human agency. That is Calvinism Dustin in a nutshell. I will agree that it has pagan origins. Augustine was a pagan philosopher who brought the pagan notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will into the church, and mandated that all agree with his stated beliefs. Sadly today his false ideas still rule for the most part, even from the grave.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TB: The answer to Questions 1 and 2 is no.
The answer to Question 3 is no and yes. No, not on the cross. Yes, from eternity.

HP: Unless I am missing something, here is yet another fine example of fatalistic determination.

 

[Tom Butler]

HP: Unless I am missing something, here is yet another fine example of fatalistic determination.

You're missing something. Dustin's post is the answer.

 

[Dustin]

HP: Fatalism simply denotes a system that the outcome has been pre-decided as to what is to happen without regard to human agency. That is Calvinism Dustin in a nutshell. I will agree that it has pagan origins. Augustine was a pagan philosopher who brought the pagan notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will into the church, and mandated that all agree with his stated beliefs. Sadly today his false ideas still rule for the most part, even from the grave.

Mr. HP,

Yes, I agree that even the pagan notion of fatalism takes no regard for free will or human agency. The pagans just substituted fate for God, as their darkened minds could not truly comprehend the truth. But I'm speaking of true Biblical determinism. Without election or predestination or an understanding of divine determinism, grace is no longer truly grace in it's Biblical sense. If your position is true, then we have a god that is not in control of his creation. This god must rely on his creation for his will to be done. Sir, that is not the God of Scripture, because if it is, then Scripture is wrong, and the apostle Paul just wasted his time writing all those letters.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Dustin]

The answer to Questions 1 and 2 is no.
The answer to Question 3 is no and yes. No, not on the cross. Yes, from eternity.

Agree 100%.