The $100,000 Roman Catholic Question.

[CarpentersApprentice]

...Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

An excellent resource to assist in answering your question is the two volumes of the Encyclopedia of the Early Church, Angelo DiBerardino, editor (English Version, Oxford University Press, 1992).

With copious references, it recounts what the early Christians thought and wrote about the people and concepts of their day - from the 2nd to the 8th century.

As a source that will allow you to trace traditions back to the apostolic age, it is priceless.

CA

 

[SouthernBoy]

I have thrown this question out there on this board numerous times in my approximte 5 years as a member. I have seen Romanists come and go here and have yet to receive a straight answer. So I'll keep tryin. Here goes:


Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

Index to the Bible!

Can you please make that check out to the Little Sisters of the Poor:
http://www.littlesistersofthepoor.org/

Thanks!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I have thrown this question out there on this board numerous times in my approximte 5 years as a member. I have seen Romanists come and go here and have yet to receive a straight answer. So I'll keep tryin. Here goes:


Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

The problem is that Protestants cannot agree on "which is necessary for faith and practice" :laugh:

 

[tragic_pizza]

The problem is that Protestants cannot agree on "which is necessary for faith and practice" :laugh:

Sadly, the criteria usually distills to "whatever ain't Catherlick!"

:BangHead:

 

[Ps104_33]

Index to the Bible!

Necessary for salvation? So right up there with the fundamentals of the faith we can add the index to our Bible.

An excellent resource to assist in answering your question is the two volumes of the Encyclopedia of the Early Church, Angelo DiBerardino, editor (English Version, Oxford University Press, 1992).

OK, I'll dig that tome up and read it this evening. The Church Fathers arent inspired and you have to sift through alot of heresy. I have my own sources on the fathers and I have read enough to know that it is not a good source for church doctrine.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Necessary for salvation? So right up there with the fundamentals of the faith we can add the index to our Bible.

Yes! Withouth the index you don't know the authentic Bible. Without the Bible how are you going to know Jesus? Without Jesus how can you be "saved?"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Don Quixote:

"Quote:
Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

It's a great question. I was hoping someone would try to answer it. The simple truth is that nothing in this context is necessary. RCC continues to strike out."

GE:

One oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the POST apostolic age, which BECAME necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, WAS, GUESS WHAT? sUNDAY-OBSERVANCE!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And one WRITTEN, biblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the Apostolic age, which was and is of essential necessity for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, was Sabbath observance on the Biblical Day for worship, "the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God". "For if Jesus had given them rest, there remaineth for the People of God a keeping of the Sabbath Day, for He Who is entered into His own rest, (is) as God in His own".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes! Withouth the index you don't know the authentic Bible. Without the Bible how are you going to know Jesus? Without Jesus how can you be "saved?"

GE:
Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And one WRITTEN, biblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the Apostolic age, which was and is of essential necessity for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, was Sabbath observance on the Biblical Day for worship, "the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God". "For if Jesus had given them rest, there remaineth for the People of God a keeping of the Sabbath Day, for He Who is entered into His own rest, (is) as God in His own".

Necessary FOR, salvation? No! but necessary BECAUSE OF, salvation! As clearly deduced from this Scripture, Hb4:4 to 10.

 

[SouthernBoy]

You asking the wrong question. A Church can't provide salvation only Christ can provide salvation. However, you can't know Christ without the Church. So, in that sense the Church is necessary for salvation through induction.

 

[DHK]

Don Quixote:

"Quote:
Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

It's a great question. I was hoping someone would try to answer it. The simple truth is that nothing in this context is necessary. RCC continues to strike out."

GE:

One oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the POST apostolic age, which BECAME necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, WAS, GUESS WHAT? sUNDAY-OBSERVANCE!

Stop riding this hobby horse.
First, it already has been demonstrated (even by the resident SDA himself) that Sunday was observed by Christians in the NT. It is time for you to get off this hobby horse, and engage in some other meaningful dialogue. Worship on the first day of the week is a Biblical practice so your answer is just another pet hobby of yours.

Now go back to the OP:
Read carefully the remarks that preface the actual challenge:

I have thrown this question out there on this board numerous times in my approximte 5 years as a member. I have seen Romanists come and go here and have yet to receive a straight answer. So I'll keep tryin. Here goes:

The challenge was directed to RCC extra-biblical doctrine. Bible believers throughout all ages have worshiped on Sunday. It is not an extra-Biblical doctrine that affects salvation. So why bring it up?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Stop riding this hobby horse.
First, it already has been demonstrated (even by the resident SDA himself) that Sunday was observed by Christians in the NT. It is time for you to get off this hobby horse, and engage in some other meaningful dialogue. Worship on the first day of the week is a Biblical practice so your answer is just another pet hobby of yours.

Now go back to the OP:
Read carefully the remarks that preface the actual challenge:

The challenge was directed to RCC extra-biblical doctrine. Bible believers throughout all ages have worshiped on Sunday. It is not an extra-Biblical doctrine that affects salvation. So why bring it up?

GE:

It is your opinion and presumption Sunday observance is not extra-Biblcal.

You have the mandate being a moderator to throw out what you like to throw out; it isn't my 'Board' - it is yours, and I am thankful for having been able to voice my views through it. So I assume this is the end of the privilege? Be it so, I shall find other media and ways for voicing what I believe and for what reason I believe what I believe if God will.
It is you who will stay behind and will have to answer to your own conscience, and one day to God.
But I so help me God read in the Scriptures nothing of "Bible believers (that) throughout all ages have worshiped on Sunday". It IS an extra-Biblical historical fact no one denies or denied, but it is a doctrine that does affect Christian LIVING, whether is it as written, or whether it is not as written. So that's why I bring it up and shall use every opportunity presenting itself to bring it up again.
You may throw me out right now; so I shall say finally,
First, it has NEVER been demonstrated (even by the resident SDA himself) that Sunday was observed by Christians in the NT.
Next, It has never been demonstrated that worship on the first day of the week was a Biblical practice, and it has never been shown otherwise than that worship on the first day took root in Christianity through CORRUPTION OF THE WORD in compromise with the wisdom and power of the unbelieving world.

You have so far dismally failed to refute me in this regard, so you now take on an attitude of threat.

You keep on dodging your most feared challenge any way you like, DHK, but you cannot present one word or sentence from Holy Writ in answer.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Maybe I have time for this:

From a RC on this thread, obviously:

"The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Protestant is saying:

The Church did not produced the Bible, the Bible produced the Church.
The Church is built upon the Bible; it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, He left the living testimomy of men empowered by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible.

Subtle twisters of God's Word!

 

[tragic_pizza]

Maybe I have time for this:

From a RC on this thread, obviously:

"The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Protestant is saying:

The Church did not produced the Bible, the Bible produced the Church.
The Church is built upon the Bible; it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, He left the living testimomy of men empowered by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible.

Subtle twisters of God's Word!

The Bible did no produce the church. Jesus Christ produced the church.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Christ is the Author of our Faith; He created His Church through the Proclamation of His Word -- Jesus Christ; which proclamation is the Written Word made heard through preaching -- preaching of the Word, the Written Word. Faith comes by the hearing of this Word.

As in the days of its origin, the Church even today is thus created and sustained by the Word -- the proclaimed Word of the Scriptures. Nobody would know a thing about Jesus Christ were it not for the Bible in its entirety. God willed and predestined it to be so. The Bible makes the Church - the true Church; that's why the RCC cannot be the true Church of Jesus Christ : It builds the Church upon the Church upon a foudation of sand, the word of the poe and the church and tradition - upon anything but the Word the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Christ is the Author of our Faith; He created His Church through the Proclamation of His Word -- Jesus Christ; which proclamation is the Written Word made heard through preaching -- preaching of the Word, the Written Word. Faith comes by the hearing of this Word.

As in the days of its origin, the Church even today is thus created and sustained by the Word -- the proclaimed Word of the Scriptures. Nobody would know a thing about Jesus Christ were it not for the Bible in its entirety. God willed and predestined it to be so. The Bible makes the Church - the true Church; that's why the RCC cannot be the true Church of Jesus Christ : It builds the Church upon the Church upon a foudation of sand, the word of the poe and the church and tradition - upon anything but the Word the Bible.

You actually have no Biblical basis for your belief. But quite frankly I am tired of every thread that you enter being derailed into a Sabbath-day thread. So why not direct your attention to the OP instead of the Sabbath.

 

[Eliyahu]

The Bible Scriptures, the Words of God, had existed before Roman Catholic started to exist.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Any documents such as Apocrypha which contradict Bible have no value. When a certain Apocrypha contradicts Bible, for example Prayer to the Dead or Idol Worship, can it supersede or override the Bible ?
Many of Catholic doctrines are not found in Bible or they contradict Bible teachings, but Catholics find the supports from the Apocrypha, which disqualifies Apocrypha as the bases of belief.

True Christianity is founded upon Sola Scriptura.

Roman Catholic is based on Apocrypha and Human Tradition of Idol Worship, plus some Bible Teachings so that they may look like a Christianity though they follow Apocrypha when Apocrypha betrays Bible.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

OK, I'll dig that tome up and read it this evening. The Church Fathers arent inspired and you have to sift through alot of heresy. I have my own sources on the fathers and I have read enough to know that it is not a good source for church doctrine.

Ps104_33,

Please clarify. Judging by your response to my suggestion that you might consult the Encyclopedia of the Early Church, I'm not sure that I understood the original question. You asked for "demonstratively traceable" "extrabiblical traditions."

What other source than the writings of the early Christians would one use to show that a practice or belief considered by some to be outside the Bible can be outlined back to the apostolic age?

CA

 

[tragic_pizza]

Christ is the Author of our Faith; He created His Church through the Proclamation of His Word -- Jesus Christ; which proclamation is the Written Word made heard through preaching -- preaching of the Word, the Written Word. Faith comes by the hearing of this Word.

As in the days of its origin, the Church even today is thus created and sustained by the Word -- the proclaimed Word of the Scriptures. Nobody would know a thing about Jesus Christ were it not for the Bible in its entirety.

Merciful heavens, you mean before 325 AD or so no one was a Christian? Al those poor people martyred for their faith... and they weren't even "saved." How sad.

God willed and predestined it to be so. The Bible makes the Church

The Word made the church -- the Word written, yes, but at her core, the Church is created and directed and sustained by the Incarnate Word. To say else is to deify a book.

- the true Church; that's why the RCC cannot be the true Church of Jesus Christ : It builds the Church upon the Church upon a foudation of sand, the word of the poe and the church and tradition - upon anything but the Word the Bible.

Yeah, they worship Jesus Christ, and not the Protestant New Testament. Silly people...

:laugh: