The 144,000--Dan's Out, Manassah's In

[Tom Butler]

I'm curious about the makeup of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

The tribe of Dan is excluded from the 144,000, but the tribe of Joseph's son Manassah is included.

So the natural question is, why?

And why not Joseph's other son Ephraim?

In Revelation 14, we see 144,000 appear again. They are with the Lamb on Mount Zion. This does not appear to be on earth, since in v.3 they are singing a new song before the throne. Further, it says they were redeemed FROM the earth. Those in Rev 7 seem to be on the earth.

Are the 144,000 in Rev. 7 the same 144,000 in Rev. 14?

Now I know the widely-held view that these are real people, and that 144,000 is a specific number. Is there any room for the view that the numbers are symbolic?

Well, enough questions for now. Release the hounds.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm curious about the makeup of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

The tribe of Dan is excluded from the 144,000, but the tribe of Joseph's son Manassah is included.

So the natural question is, why?

And why not Joseph's other son Ephraim?

In Revelation 14, we see 144,000 appear again. They are with the Lamb on Mount Zion. This does not appear to be on earth, since in v.3 they are singing a new song before the throne. Further, it says they were redeemed FROM the earth. Those in Rev 7 seem to be on the earth.

Are the 144,000 in Rev. 7 the same 144,000 in Rev. 14?

Now I know the widely-held view that these are real people, and that 144,000 is a specific number. Is there any room for the view that the numbers are symbolic?

Well, enough questions for now. Release the hounds.

Have you or anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:

It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17

Christ refers to Judas as a devil:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71

Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count along with Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The Tribes

* Reuben
* Simeon
* Levi
* Judah
* Dan
* Naphtali
* Gad
* Asher
* Issachar
* Zebulun
* Joseph
o Manasseh
o Ephraim
* Benjamin

Apostles mentioned in the bible other than the twelve:

Barnabas

In Acts 14:14

Barnabas is referred to as an apostle.


Andronicus and Junia [Note that Junia was a woman.]

Those interested should read:

The Lost Apostle: Searching for the Truth About Junia by Rena Pederson.

In Rom 16:7

Paul states that Andronicus and Junia were "of note among the apostles," that is, distinguished apostles. Here Paul is referring to a female apostle. Sadly editors and translators, as in the RSV, have changed the name to from the female name Junia to Junias. Junias is the masculine version of Junia. Junia was a common name, Junias was not. This change is part of a pattern whereby later editors changed Paul's epistles to make them less favorable toward women in positions of authority.

Here the KJV gets it right using Junia:

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Silas

Silas is referred to as an apostle in 1 Thes. 1:1

and 2:6

along with Timothy and Paul. He also performs the functioning of an apostle as Paul's companion in Paul's second missionary journey in Acts 15:40ff.

Timothy


Timothy is referred to as an apostle in 1 Thes. 1:1

and 2:6

Apollos

Apollos is included as "us apostles" in 1 Cor. 4:9

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Crabtownboy

Just a quick reminder.

We have to distinguish between Apostles of Christ and apostles of the Church.
--------------------------------------------------
Barnabas, was definitely an apostle of the Church in Antioch.

And my interpretation of Romans 16:7......
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

.....is that Junia, is not being called an apostle here, but is being commended by the apostles. (She was noticed, by them!)

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Tom Butler,
You wrote:

I know the widely-held view that these are real people, and that 144,000 is a specific number. Is there any room for the view that the numbers are symbolic?

I believe God's original plan for the 12 Tribes of Israel made provision for the punishment of Jereboam for splitting away from Judah to form the Kingdom of Ephraim and
at the same time for Dan's sinful choice of their own place of worship in the far north of Israel after failing to conquer their enemies and settle in the land that
was allotted to them.

Dan is not listed in the Chronicles for the settlement in the land after Joshua
led them into Canaan. But twelve tribes are listed because Joseph's two sons
had been adopted by Jacob as his "own sons". Gen.48:5. Jacob blessed both
Ephraim and Manasseh so that one took the place of Dan and the other took the place of Joseph in I Chronicles for the list of Jacob's descendants.
I Chron.6:60-65.

God's punishment of Dan and Ephraim continues even in the list of the 12
Tribes to be represented in the Lamb's Bride of the New Jerusalem...the eternal Temple of God and the Lamb. Rev.7:1-8; Rev.21:22; Rev.21:2,9,12,14.

Ephraim and Dan are not included among the "Firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb". The Tribes listed in Rev.7:1-8 represent both the OT and NT Saints
who are in the Body of Christ as well as the Bride of the Lamb. The Lamb will rescue the 12 Tribes (without representatives from Dan or Ephraim) and take them
from Mt. Zion to heaven as soon as they are sealed with His name. On His way to heaven, prior to His gathering of the rest of the Elect from earth on the same Day,
"the Son of Man will also FIRST reap the tares of the earth". The Lamb presents the Firstfruit to God and they sing the Song of the Lamb before the Temple Opens in heaven. Rev.14:3-4; 15:3-4.

But God will keep His original promise to the 12 Tribes during the Millennium!
Ephraim and Dan will each inherit a portion of the Land of Israel. Actually, Dan is listed first!! Ezek.48:1-7,23-29. On the East side of the Holy City of
Jerusalem there will be three gates...for Joseph, Benjamin and DAN...but no
gate for Ephraim!!! Ezek.48:30-35.

These 144,000 Jews of the 12 Tribes of Israel are represented among the Elect who will be raised up on the Lastday to literally fulfill these Scriptures!
They are among those in the Body of Christ who "overcome to the END and will be given authority over the nations!! They will rule the nations with an iron rod"
for 1000 years when "He comes as King"!!! Rev.2:25-27.

One of the 12 prime Keys to Revelation is that "no one enters the Temple in heaven until the 7 Plagues exhaust God's Patience...because it was filled with the smoke of God's power and glory"! Rev.15:8.The 144,000 Jewish "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb" must be "redeemed from earth...from among men" and taken to heaven and join the Martyrs to "present the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days and be crowned as King of kings"!! Dan.7:13,14. As soon as they sing the Song of the Lamb and Song of Moses, "The Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony in heaven was opened"!!! Rev.14:1-5; Rev.15:1-5.

All of the above occurs on the Lastday before heaven's Temple Opens. This can't be a lesson in figurative language of what is happening now.

Forty verses out of 100 in Revelation that fulfill events on the Lastday will occur before the Temple opens! Twenty-two more verses fulfill the Three-Act Drama and Christ is crowned as King!! All the Saints rejoice and then heaven opens and Christ descends to complete the final 38 verses as well as that days' 22 major events...all within 6-7 Hours!!!

 

[kyredneck]

....apostles mentioned in the bible other than the twelve....

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take.
23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
26 And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1

 

[kyredneck]

Hello Crabtownboy

Just a quick reminder.

We have to distinguish between Apostles of Christ and apostles of the Church.
--------------------------------------------------
Barnabas, was definitely an apostle of the Church in Antioch.

And my interpretation of Romans 16:7......
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

.....is that Junia, is not being called an apostle here, but is being commended by the apostles. (She was noticed, by them!)

SL, may I suggest a re phrasal or an addition to your statement?:

'We have to distinguish between Apostles of Christ and Witnesses of Christ.'

The Apostles of Christ were all Witnesses of Christ, but by no means did all the Witnesses of Christ belong to The Twelve. Christ had many followers/witnesses/disciples while on earth, but there were only twelve apostles. I believe Barnabas, who was a Jew, could well have been a follower/witness/disciple of Christ before the crucifixion, as also Andronicus and Junia, thus Paul's description of them, 'who also have been in Christ before me'. And I believe you're correct concerning Junia being taken note of by the apostles.

and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jn 15:27

Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:21,22

This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32

and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15

And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree....And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:30,32

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:39-42

But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:30,31

or we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Pet 1:16

For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also. 1 Cor 15:3-8

It was through the eyewitness testimony of these witnesses that the [Jewish] world was convicted of the judicial murder of Christ.