The 144,000 of Revelation 7 & 14

[Linda64]

In another thread, the question was asked why Dan and Ephraim were left out of the list of the 144,000 in Revelation 7. I believe that question was answered and then the thread began to deviate to the "Identity" of the 144,000.

Here are the verses in question:

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
**************************
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Are these 144,000 saved Jews (from the Church Age) which were taken up in the Rapture, "selected and sealed" in heaven, and sent back to the earth for special service on the earth during the Tribulation? OR, do these 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe of the children of Israel) come out of the nation of Israel who were NOT taken in the Rapture and "selected and sealed" on the earth for special service....then redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:3)?

 

[Palatka51]

I think that these are the result of the last great revival that will sweep the Christian world. Eunuchs of the nation of Israel will be sent out to evangelize the scattered tribes throughout the world before the Church is raptured and all those that heed to their message will be saved by the blood of Jesus their Messiah and our Christ. Just as Jesus said "The first shall be last and the last shall be first".

Matthew 19:30
30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

That's IMHO, as I am still open to learning.

 

[Linda64]

I think that these are the result of the last great revival that will sweep the Christian world. Eunuchs of the nation of Israel will be sent out to evangelize the scattered tribes throughout the world before the Church is raptured and all those that heed to their message will be saved by the blood of Jesus their Messiah and our Christ. Just as Jesus said "The first shall be last and the last shall be first".

Matthew 19:30
30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

That's IMHO, as I am still open to learning.

I agree that the 144,000 will probably be eunuchs

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

However, I do not believe that this will happen before the Rapture, otherwise, why would they need to be "sealed"? We are all "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption when we are saved. (Ephesians 4:30) There is major evangelism in Israel now...and Jews are getting saved...but they become members of the Church at salvation.

How does "the first shal be last and the last shall be first" Scripture fit into this scenario? Just wondering?

 

[Palatka51]

I agree that the 144,000 will probably be eunuchs

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

However, I do not believe that this will happen before the Rapture, otherwise, why would they need to be "sealed"? We are all "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption when we are saved. (Ephesians 4:30) There is major evangelism in Israel now...and Jews are getting saved...but they become members of the Church at salvation.

How does "the first shal be last and the last shall be first" Scripture fit into this scenario? Just wondering?

IMHO, The Gospel came to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. There is a "great falling away" under way in the Gentile world while there are many of Israeli descent beginning to turn to Christ. So the first to get the gospel mostly rejected it while the gospel caught on fire in the Gentile world. Now in the Gentile world many are rejecting Christ while in the Jewish world many will receive the gospel much the same way the Gentiles did in the 1st century. IMHO.

 

[Linda64]

IMHO, The Gospel came to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. There is a "great falling away" under way in the Gentile world while there are many of Israeli descent beginning to turn to Christ. So the first to get the gospel mostly rejected it while the gospel caught on fire in the Gentile world. Now in the Gentile world many are rejecting Christ while in the Jewish world many will receive the gospel much the same way the Gentiles did in the 1st century. IMHO.

Great application, Bro! According to Romans 1:16, the gospel is always to go "the Jew first and also to the Greek".

As far as the 144,000, we know they are all Jews...but those Jews who are "sealed" in Revelation 7 are not the Jews who are being saved today. The Jews who are being saved today are members of the Church/the Body of Christ. The Church will not be going through the Tribulation. This is my point....refuting the doctrine of that other thread that the Jews in Revelation 7 will be the ones saved during the Church Age and "sealed" in heaven and sent back to earth during the Tribulation...there is no Scriptural proof for such a doctrine.

 

[Rubato 1]

Is a eunuch a virgin? Can a eunuch be 'defiled with women?'
Or are these men who really are dedicated to Christ? Or too busy in the military?
I have heard that there are many virgins in the Israeli military, who hold to the orthodox faith and live suprisingly morally during their required service. I heard this from a missionary to the Israeli military.

 

[Palatka51]

Great application, Bro! According to Romans 1:16, the gospel is always to go "the Jew first and also to the Greek".

As far as the 144,000, we know they are all Jews...but those Jews who are "sealed" in Revelation 7 are not the Jews who are being saved today. The Jews who are being saved today are members of the Church/the Body of Christ.

I agree. :thumbs:

The Church will not be going through the Tribulation. This is my point....refuting the doctrine of that other thread that the Jews in Revelation 7 will be the ones saved during the Church Age and "sealed" in heaven and sent back to earth during the Tribulation...there is no Scriptural proof for such a doctrine.

My view of the Tribulation is somewhat different in that there will have to be a defining seperation of the tares from the wheat and in my view the "Tribulation of the Saints" accomplishes that. The tares will be all that is left after the resurrection and be reserved for wrath. Those that are not appointed to wrath will not be here. Once the Church is gone there will be no soul saved. As it was in the days of Noah the world scoffed and troubled (tribulation) Noah up to when the door of the ark was shut and secured Noah and his family. The ark bore them above the flood (wrath) and no flesh was saved outside the ark. Please note that in Noah were the fathers of all nations Shem, Ham and Japheth. Those nations that were saved were borne above the waters (wrath) in one building. Not four separate boats but one. All four suffered persecution (tribulation) as they endeavored to build what God had instructed them to build.

Throughout all generations from Christ to this day Christians throughout the world have suffered persecutions as well as the Jewish people. These things will continue worse and worse until there is a concerted world wide effort to eradicate the world of both Christians and Jews. We are in the beginnings of that effort now. The coming of a man that will consummate all worldly resources to that goal is very near. Islam is looking for it's twelfth Iman.

Just out of curiosity have you ever noticed that most, not all, leaders of business and govt belong to groups that lavish themselves with the images and symbols of Islam?

Again it is just my view and thoughts that I share with you. I am still a student that yearns to know more of my Lord.

 

[Palatka51]

Is a eunuch a virgin? Can a eunuch be 'defiled with women?'
Or are these men who really are dedicated to Christ? Or too busy in the military?
I have heard that there are many virgins in the Israeli military, who hold to the orthodox faith and live suprisingly morally during their required service. I heard this from a missionary to the Israeli military.

Good questions and that would be an interesting development Rubato.

 

[Linda64]

Is a eunuch a virgin? Can a eunuch be 'defiled with women?'
Or are these men who really are dedicated to Christ? Or too busy in the military?
I have heard that there are many virgins in the Israeli military, who hold to the orthodox faith and live suprisingly morally during their required service. I heard this from a missionary to the Israeli military.

Way of Life Encyclopedia
EUNUCH
A castrated male. Such men were commonly made custodians of kings' harems (2 Kings 20:18; Isaiah 39:7; 56:3-4; Jeremiah 38:7; Matthew 19:12). The term also applies to an officer in a general sense (Daniel 1:3; Acts 8:27). The Hebrew word for eunuch, saris, is also translated "chamberlain" (2 Kings 23:11; Esther 1:10) and "officer" (Genesis 37:36; 1 Samuel 8:15; 1 Kings 22:9; 2 Kings 8:6). The term "eunuch" as used in Matthew 19:12 refers to one who is either castrated or otherwise, either forcefully or willingly, foregoes a sexual relationship in life. In ancient times a eunuch was commonly in charge of harems. Oftentimes he was castrated, but not always. (According to the historian Josephus, castration was not practiced by the Jews upon either man or animals.) The point is that he was forced or forbidden to have sexual relations, and the Lord uses this practice to illustrate His point about virginity and abstinence. He describes three types of "eunuchs": (1) Some are born without the ability to have sexual relationships or to procreate. (2) Some are made this way by man, referring to those who are castrated or otherwise mutilated. (3) Some willingly forgo a legitimate sexual relationship in marriage because of their devotion to the Lord and His service. The Apostle Paul develops this theme in 1 Corinthians 7:26-35.

I thought was an interesting definition. It is possible that these 144,000 could be eunuchs...according to the third type of "eunuch"

Thanks for this information about the Israeli military---I was unaware of this fact. Could be prophetic.

 

[skypair]

[/B]Are these 144,000 saved Jews (from the Church Age) which were taken up in the Rapture, "selected and sealed" in heaven, and sent back to the earth for special service on the earth during the Tribulation?

No.

OR, do these 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe of the children of Israel) come out of the nation of Israel who were NOT taken in the Rapture and "selected and sealed" on the earth for special service....then redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:3)?

They are 144,000 real Jews protected alive from midtrib to MK. Not eunuchs -- they fulfill the qualifications for priests though they are from all 12 tribes. I believe that, just as Russia is approaching like a whirlwind" from the north, Christ appears to in Jersualem (Joel 2, Zech 12:10) and they will believe AND be indwelt by the Spirit, firstfruits of Israel's MK.

skypair

 

[Linda64]

No.

They are 144,000 real Jews protected alive from midtrib to MK. Not eunuchs -- they fulfill the qualifications for priests though they are from all 12 tribes. I believe that, just as Russia is approaching like a whirlwind" from the north, Christ appears to in Jersualem (Joel 2, Zech 12:10) and they will believe AND be indwelt by the Spirit, firstfruits of Israel's MK.

skypair

Thank you for the correction on the eunuchs...however, I don't think I said the 144,000 would "literally" be eunuchs, but a type of "eunuch"...according to the description in Revelation 14.4. I agree that the qualifications for priests would fit that description. I also agree with the remainder of your post.

As far as the first question....that was brought up in another thread by another poster...which is the reason I started this thread...in order to refute it. According to that poster, Jews who are saved in the Church Age will be "sealed" in heaven (144,000) and sent back to earth for "service" during the Tribulation...and no Scripture was given to prove it.