The _______ is the power of God unto Salvation?

[Skandelon]

I saw this question in a blog and wanted to pose it here for consideration:

"It seems to me that the inevitable conclusion of Calvinism is that due to the deadness of man in sin, that the living and active, faith-producing Gospel has absolutely no [positive] impact upon the unregenerate heart, unless it is accompanied by an Irresistible Grace. If so, then why do we talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Gospel? Why don't we instead talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Irresistible Grace, without which, the Gospel is otherwise dead and dormant?"

 

[canadyjd]

I saw this question in a blog and wanted to pose it here for consideration:

"It seems to me that the inevitable conclusion of Calvinism is that due to the deadness of man in sin, that the living and active, faith-producing Gospel has absolutely no [positive] impact upon the unregenerate heart, unless it is accompanied by an Irresistible Grace. If so, then why do we talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Gospel? Why don't we instead talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Irresistible Grace, without which, the Gospel is otherwise dead and dormant?"

I would say that "due to the deadness of man in sin, that the....gospel has no salvific impact on the unregenerate heart unless it is accompanied by the active intervention of God, Holy Spirit.

I can then speak of the dynamic power of Almighty God in bringing a person who is dead in trespasses and sin into a right relationship with Himself.

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Bryant]

I saw this question in a blog and wanted to pose it here for consideration:

"It seems to me that the inevitable conclusion of Calvinism is that due to the deadness of man in sin, that the living and active, faith-producing Gospel has absolutely no [positive] impact upon the unregenerate heart, unless it is accompanied by an Irresistible Grace. If so, then why do we talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Gospel? Why don't we instead talk about the dynamite power of the living and active Irresistible Grace, without which, the Gospel is otherwise dead and dormant?"

I would say that both sides in this discussion believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I am not a Calvinist, but this kind of misstatement of what they believe is not helpful or right.

 

[Skandelon]

I would say that "due to the deadness of man in sin, that the....gospel has no salvific impact on the unregenerate heart unless it is accompanied by the active intervention of God, Holy Spirit.

Would you agree that the gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit, in that it was produced by the Holy Spirit, preserved by the Holy Spirit, carried by the Holy Spirit, and proclaimed by people indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

If so, why would you presume that the powerful work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the gospel is insufficient and thus must be accompanied by yet another working of the Holy Spirit? Especially considering that the scriptures speak of the gospel's power in numerous places, but the power of this so-called "effectual/inward/irresistible" calling is never expounded upon but only induced through a few vague proof texts?

 

[Skandelon]

I would say that both sides in this discussion believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I am not a Calvinist, but this kind of misstatement of what they believe is not helpful or right.

I agree that they make that claim, but in reality, do you deny that the power really rest in the so-called "irresistible grace" which either "accompanies" or "precedes" the Gospel call?

 

[canadyjd]

Would you agree that the gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit, in that it was produced by the Holy Spirit, preserved by the Holy Spirit, carried by the Holy Spirit, and proclaimed by people indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

If so, why would you presume that the powerful work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the gospel is insufficient and thus must be accompanied by yet another working of the Holy Spirit? Especially considering that the scriptures speak of the gospel's power in numerous places, but the power of this so-called "effectual/inward/irresistible" calling is never expounded upon but only induced through a few vague proof texts?

Does the Holy Spirit convict the world concerning sin? Does the Holy Spirit convict the world concerning righteousness? Does the Holy Spirit convict the world of Judgement? Does the Holy Spirit guide you into all the truth?

Why are you putting God, Holy Spirit at odds with God's Word? Why do you deny what is clearly taught in scripture (not a "few vague proof texts"), that both are involved in bringing a person to salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Bryant]

I agree that they make that claim, but in reality, do you deny that the power really rest in the so-called "irresistible grace" which either "accompanies" or "precedes" the Gospel call?

Since I am not a Calvinist, I can't answer for them. But I would imagine they would say that all of those items make up the Gospel. I would disagree, but we all preach the same Gospel. We all preach Jesus whom to know is life eternal. We all preach that He is the only name. We disagree about the mechanics. I think they're wrong. But to act as if they don't believe that the Gospel is the power of God is tantamount to stating they have another Gospel and that is incorrect.

 

[Skandelon]

Since I am not a Calvinist, I can't answer for them. But I would imagine they would say that all of those items make up the Gospel. I would disagree, but we all preach the same Gospel. We all preach Jesus whom to know is life eternal. We all preach that He is the only name. We disagree about the mechanics. I think they're wrong. But to act as if they don't believe that the Gospel is the power of God is tantamount to stating they have another Gospel and that is incorrect.

I think you have misunderstood my intent. I'm not questioning WHAT they think the gospel IS, I questioning WHAT they believe the gospel DOES. See the difference?

I affirm that they believe in the same gospel as we do, I just take issue with the attempt to claim that it accomplishes the same thing or has the same power.

I'd love to hear if they would agree with your statement regarding all "those items making up the gospel," because I'd have a follow-up question for them.

 

[Winman]

I think you have misunderstood my intent. I'm not questioning WHAT they think the gospel IS, I questioning WHAT they believe the gospel DOES. See the difference?

I affirm that they believe in the same gospel as we do, I just take issue with the attempt to claim that it accomplishes the same thing or has the same power.

I'd love to hear if they would agree with your statement regarding all "those items making up the gospel," because I'd have a follow-up question for them.

Jesus compared the word of God to a seed. A seed already has life in it, but it must be planted in soil to grow.

In the parable of the sower, the same seed was sown on four different soils. The way side was hard and the seed could not penetrate and take root. The good soil was soft and received (faith) the seed, it took root, grew and produced fruit.

Jesus also explained that the condition of these soils was the responsibility of the hearer.

Lk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The problem is not that the gospel does not have power, the problem is that some hearers do not receive the power by faith.

 

[Skandelon]

Great word Winman, thanks!

 

[JesusFan]

Would you agree that the gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit, in that it was produced by the Holy Spirit, preserved by the Holy Spirit, carried by the Holy Spirit, and proclaimed by people indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

I

Would say that the Gospel is actually the death of jesus upon the Cross as our atoner, amd God raising him from the dead for our justification!

The HS DID indeed inspire the scriptures to record that gact down forus, but that there is more than "just " preaching of the Gospel, as the HS also is directly involved in openning hearts/mids to receive the truth of the Gospel is saying!

f so, why would you presume that the powerful work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the gospel is insufficient and thus must be accompanied by yet another working of the Holy Spirit? Especially considering that the scriptures speak of the gospel's power in numerous places, but the power of this so-called "effectual/inward/irresistible" calling is never expounded upon but only induced through a few vague proof texts?

The cross of Christ can and does save ALL those whom jesus died on behalf of, its just that they have to be able to be palced in a comndition by the working of the HS to be able to respond to Christ and becomed saved...

Your biggest problem in this area is that you just fail to see that the fall of Adam lietrally spiritually wreaked us, so the Cross of Christ was means/way that God provided a real salvation for those whom Christ died for, and we need BOTH the Gospel and the HS working to bring us to "life in Christ!"

 

[Skandelon]

I
Would say that the Gospel is actually the death of jesus upon the Cross as our atoner, amd God raising him from the dead for our justification!

Yet Paul calls IT the power of God unto Salvation. Jesus calls his words "spirit and life." And there are dozens of other such texts that speak of the power and effectiveness of God's words. Where are the ones that speak of a secret inward irresistible working? Why not just accept that God works through the means of his words?

The HS DID indeed inspire the scriptures to record that gact down forus, but that there is more than "just " preaching of the Gospel, as the HS also is directly involved in openning hearts/mids to receive the truth of the Gospel is saying!

I agree, but there is nothing which indicates this "opening" is an irresistible force. God is said to "provoke" Israel with envy so as to save some (Rm 11:14), it speaks of signs and wonders used to provoke the will and open some eyes, and there are other circumstances which lead to men "humbling themselves" and "turning to God for help." All of these are works of God in opening the hearts of men, but nothing is said of these works being "irresistibly salvific."

Your biggest problem in this area is that you just fail to see that the fall of Adam lietrally spiritually wreaked us,

Yet for some weird reason God focused on the toiling of the soil and labor pains when speaking of the curses of the Fall? And He even goes on to say that men are now "like us knowing both good and evil." I guess God forgot to mention the biggest curse of them all? He forgot to tell Adam and Eve that they would no longer be able to hear, understand, and receive any messages of reconciliation sent directly to them by God. Strange.

so the Cross of Christ was means/way that God provided a real salvation for those whom Christ died for

I thought you rejected Limited atonement?

 

[JesusFan]

Yet Paul calls IT the power of God unto Salvation. Jesus calls his words "spirit and life." And there are dozens of other such texts that speak of the power and effectiveness of God's words. Where are the ones that speak of a secret inward irresistible working? Why not just accept that God works through the means of his words?


I agree, but there is nothing which indicates this "opening" is an irresistible force. God is said to "provoke" Israel with envy so as to save some (Rm 11:14), it speaks of signs and wonders used to provoke the will and open some eyes, and there are other circumstances which lead to men "humbling themselves" and "turning to God for help." All of these are works of God in opening the hearts of men, but nothing is said of these works being "irresistibly salvific."


Yet for some weird reason God focused on the toiling of the soil and labor pains when speaking of the curses of the Fall? And He even goes on to say that men are now "like us knowing both good and evil." I guess God forgot to mention the biggest curse of them all? He forgot to tell Adam and Eve that they would no longer be able to hear, understand, and receive any messages of reconciliation sent directly to them by God. Strange.

I thought you rejected Limited atonement?[/QUOTE

]

reject the idea that the Death of jesus was/is effectual applied towards all, its just "works" on behalf of those who have faith in jesus as their Saviour...

Died for sins of All, but effectually only towards some!