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The Answer to the Debate

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by JonathanDT, Apr 2, 2005.

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  1. JonathanDT

    JonathanDT New Member

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    I believe the Church has missed the very simple answer which fuses Calvinism and Arminianism, showing that both have elements of truth.

    God's election is implicit, not explicit.
     
    #1 JonathanDT, Apr 2, 2005
  2. rc

    rc New Member

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    That's not an answer that's just an uneducated excuse.
     
    #2 rc, Apr 2, 2005
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Good point, Jonathan do you have scriptural support for that?
     
    #3 Wes Outwest, Apr 2, 2005
  4. rc

    rc New Member

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    Wes,
    You better look those two words up before you admit whether it was a good point or not... ha ha..
     
    #4 rc, Apr 2, 2005
  5. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    I'd say that the more I read scripture, the more EXplicit election becomes. not because I'm twisting the scripture, but becaues I'm not hiding from it any longer.
     
    #5 whetstone, Apr 2, 2005
  6. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK <img src =/6181.jpg>

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    Are you saying that Gods election is not directly expressed throughout scripture?
     
    #6 Rich_UK, Apr 2, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    OK, I did
    The point made by Jonathan is this:
    Jonathan's point is a GOOD POINT!
     
    #7 Wes Outwest, Apr 2, 2005
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect‘s sake those days shall be shortened.

    Explicit.

    Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Explicit.

    Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Explicit.

    Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect‘s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    Explicit.

    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    Explicit.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Explicit.

    Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    Explicit.

    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

    Explicit.

    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    Explicit.

    1Tim 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    Explicit.

    2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Explicit.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Explicit.

    1Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Explicit.

    1Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    Explicit.

    2John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

    Explicit.

    2John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

    Explicit.

    It looks like the "implicit" theory just went down the drain! :D
     
    #8 TCassidy, Apr 2, 2005
  9. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK <img src =/6181.jpg>

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    I dont think it actually left the drain in the first place did it?
     
    #9 Rich_UK, Apr 2, 2005
  10. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    There is no personal application to the theory because God did not give us a list of the elect and there is no test for election. In other words, no one can claim to be "elect."
     
    #10 billwald, Apr 2, 2005
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Billwald just set the record straight.

    I've been asking for identification of the elect since I first started posting on this forum. NOT one single Calvinist has been able to give me an EXPLICIT list, nor have they been able to tell me they are one of the EXPLICIT elect!

    That was Johathan's point! It is My Point, and I am convinced billwald was punctuating that point!

    God's Elect is an implicit inferance!
     
    #11 Wes Outwest, Apr 2, 2005
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God did not give us a list of the saved and there is no test for salvation. In other words, no one can claim to be "saved."

    Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it! Try again. So far you are batting 0.
     
    #12 TCassidy, Apr 2, 2005
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    There is a test for salvation, but no human is the list of who is and who ain't.
     
    #13 Wes Outwest, Apr 2, 2005
  14. Dave

    Dave Member
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    God did not give us a list, but there is a list. It is called "The Book of Life". Humbly pray with fear and trembling that your name might indeed be found therein. Believe only the witness of the spirit and not your own heart to ascertain whether you are indeed one of the elect.
     
    #14 Dave, Apr 2, 2005
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God did not infer, He implied. You inferred.
     
    #15 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  16. JonathanDT

    JonathanDT New Member

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    Sorry I don't have more time to explain this right now, I'll definitely do so soon. But for right now: What I mean is that...

    God did not explicitely choose individuals to be saved unconditionally. What God did was create this world in the way which gives him the most glory (this world is the best of all possible worlds). In doing so, who would be saved was, in a sense, determined in the way God created the world. However, this election was not based on God picking some to be saved and the rest to be damned. Election is based on the history of the universe. This includes of course humans' choice to accept or reject the gospel. Thus, God's election is implicit. It is still election however, because if God had created the world another way, then the people saved wouldn't have been saved.
     
    #16 JonathanDT, Apr 3, 2005
  17. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK <img src =/6181.jpg>

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    God did not explicitely choose individuals to be saved unconditionally.
    So then, on what condition exactly are humans chosen to be saved?

    What God did was create this world in the way which gives him the most glory (this world is the best of all possible worlds).

    God didn't create the world so that he could have *most of the glory*

    In doing so, who would be saved was, in a sense, determined in the way God created the world.

    How do you figure ? The bible tells me that no man may come to the Father unless he is drawn. Our being drawn is for His purpose and good pleasure. Not *No man may come to the Father unless it has been so determined by how the father created the world.

    However, this election was not based on God picking some to be saved and the rest to be damned.

    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


    Election is based on the history of the universe.
    Be specific please? :confused:

    This includes of course humans' choice to accept or reject the gospel. Thus, God's election is implicit.

    So Gods "election" is implicit, yet based soley on to mans free will? This is silly.

    It is still election however, because if God had created the world another way, then the people saved wouldn't have been saved

    You know this how exactly?
     
    #17 Rich_UK, Apr 3, 2005
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory </font>[/QUOTE]Rich, are you not aware that the scripture you posted is Paul explaining Israel to Rome? It does not support your theory of election except when you take it out of context!
     
    #18 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  19. here now

    here now Member

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    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory </font>[/QUOTE]Rich, are you not aware that the scripture you posted is Paul explaining Israel to Rome? It does not support your theory of election except when you take it out of context!     </font>[/QUOTE]Wes,
    Are you saying that He(the Potter) does not mold us,today?
     
    #19 here now, Apr 3, 2005
  20. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK <img src =/6181.jpg>

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    I forgot vs 24 after 23

    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
    #20 Rich_UK, Apr 3, 2005
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