The Big Debate .James White vs John Shelby Spong

As interesting as this debate sounds, I can't see it going anywhere as Spong doesn't hold to anything whatsoever, there isn't any common ground they can meet on and debate from. Oh well, hopefully it is beneficial to those who watch and listen to it.

 

Dr. James will tear him to pieces. Spong is the Matt Drudge of mainline Christianity. I can't believe he is even on the dais anywhere. Are people actually taking this joker seriously?

 

I agree with Tom I have several of James White's cds where he debates Mormons and KJVO's he knows his stuff. Spong is got a book entitled "Saving the Bible from Fundamentalist"

 

Spong also has a book entitled "The Sins of the Bible". Which is one of the new releases in the christian section at Barnes and Noble. Spong is most definitely an enemy of the Gospel. He isn't worthy of debate. I have never read such an attack on the Bible as I did in that book as I skimmed it in the store.

 

This will be a great debate. In fact I believe this is the very thing we need. A good, solid debate between two scholars on the topic of homosexuality and Biblical Christianity. On the liberal side we have JS Spong, on the conservative side we have reformed teacher/scholar Dr James White. Dr White is a great debator. I suspect he will directly challenge many of Spongs liberal presuppositions. Also expect to see Dr White stick with the Word of God as he is always faithful to do. As for Spong, expect him to behave in a condescending way. Expect him to attempt to "out smart" White and to talk down to White. Expect Spong to attempt to present his position as that of real Bible scholars and historians. I am certain that White is aware of how Spong behaves in debates and I am sure he will be ready with an answer. Spong does not represent Biblical Christianity, nor does he represent the majority of Bible scholars or Bible historians in general. Spong is on the left wing of scholarship.

I hope AOMIN records this on dvd so those who can't attend can watch the debate (and not just listen). White's debate with Crossan this summer was wonderful, in fact I have watched it several times. I found the Crossan/White debate to be very refreshing. Usually when I hear a Crossan debate it is against NT Wright or WL Craig (etc) and, while very interesting, it can get sort of stuffy. I am sure the White/Spong debate will be just as refreshing. I pray that Spong will have the upbeat, positive attitude that Crossan had. However I have heard Spong and, while not as harsh as Funk, is certainly not as friendly as Crossan. I suspect Spong will not enjoy this debate as many of his presuppositions will be challenged head on. So I suspect it will not be as friendly of debate as the Crossan/White debate.

However we must give Spong his due. He is going to be much more prepared for this debate than Barry Lynn was (though I must admit that would not be difficult). That fact, I am sure, will not be a problem for White.

I look forward to the debate.

In Christ,
Martin.

 

==I agree. I was going to read the book in order to challenge his position. However when I skimmed through it in Barnes and Noble I found myself getting way too angry. So I put it down and walked off. If I was to attempt to read that book I would probably explode (literally). Thus my hats are off to Dr White because he has much more patience than I ever could.

Normally I can read the liberals. I can read Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan without getting too angry. That is because most of their arguments are more scholarly in nature (ie..less personal). Thus I can read their stuff and argue with their positions as I read (thus becoming better able to deal effectively with their unhistorical/unBiblical arguments). However Spong writes in such an inflammatory way that I can't spend much time reading his writings. I believe good scholars, be they liberal or conservative, stay clear of such inflammatory language. So my opinion of Spong is not good at all.

In Christ,
Martin.

 

==Amen to that, and I fully agree!!

==I have often wondered why people like Spong and those in the Jesus Seminar (Crossan, Borg, etc) bother calling themselves Christians. Sadly I think part of the problem is that they are so decieved that they honestly believe they are Christians. I know that is the case with Crossan. He denies the virgin birth, miracles, the burial of Christ, and thus the empty tomb, and the resurrection. He writes those things off as parables and not literal events/history. However, as amazing as it may sound, he still sees himself as a Christian! How? Because in his view one does not have to believe those are literal/historical events in order to be a Christian. That is clearly an unBiblical and unChristian position (1Cor 15:1-19. 1Jn 1:1-4, Lk 1:1-4, Jn 20:30-31, 21:24-25, etc.). So how they can claim to be Christians still makes no sense to me. All I can say is they are decieved.

The question is a good one; If they believe the New Testament is not historical, that it is myth and parable, why do they spend their time studying and debating it? It just does not make sense to me. They seem to think that the "fundamentals" of the faith are not that fundamental. Therefore one can take it or leave it and still be a Christian. Of course that is 100% unBiblical and is therefore itself an unChristian view. That is why I believe this debate between White/Spong is so needed. It will show, I have no doubt, that Spong does not represent any form of Biblical Christianity.

God bless Dr White!

In Christ,
Martin.

 

That is the problem, what does Dr James White do when Spong trashes the Bible? Any Scripture that Dr White quotes is going to be meaningless to Spong. Nevertheless hopefully the debate will cause some of the fence sitters in the Episcopal - Anglican churches to take a side.

 

Yes this will be an interesting one. They really don't have much common ground at all. White willargue the authority of the Bible and Spong will reject it.

I figure White (whom I think will certainly win the DEBATE) will paint Spong as a wishy washy universalist who has no grounds or support for ANY of his beliefs other than his own persoanl liberal opinions. White will articulate that the Christian view is authentically derived from the Bible, a fact to which Spong will have to agree, whether or not he believes the Bible is factually true.

Merry Christmas all!

 

Should be interesting. I have read a few of Spongs books and have his autobiography.

Some general observations:

i) Interesting insights but he acts as if the alleged flaws and issues he "discovered" should be a shock to the ignorant Christian masses as if these were the first time the issues have arisen.

ii) Comes across as arrogant and a little whiney in his autobiography. Complains about people making statements misinterpreting his motivations and making personal attacks...yet his can be rather vicious in attacking and belittling his conservative opponents within the church.

iii) scholarship leaves something to be desired. Some argumentation could have a truck driven through it. Certainly, as pointed out above, he is no Marcus Borg.

iv) I have found that reagrdless of these issues, if you are a "Progressive" Chrisitian you have a tendency to see him as a sort of prophet. Ihave seen comments on Prgressive Chrsitianity.com that basically say how his revelations made such a difference in rescuing people from the shackles of fundamentalism/biblical literalism.

v) Books are interesting. No idea why he is a Bishop in apostolic succession going back to the apostles. Was their not an opening in another denomination (Unitarian??). I do not mean that disrespectfully.

Like others I look forward to the CD. Spong likes debate and once said something the effect that it was good Falwell did not continue theirs because he did not think Falwell was up to it. I thought that rather unfair considering the frank difference in theological education and the way that could be interpreted as a personal attack. Let him take on Sproul or JI Packer.

Nord

 

I was told of another upcoming debate with James White:

Calvinism Debate
WHEN: Monday, October 16th, 2006 at 7pm
WHERE: New Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia
COST: There will be no cost for admission.

Speaking against Calvinism will be the President of Liberty Theological Seminary, Dr. Ergun Caner and his brother, Dr. Emir Caner of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Speaking in defense of Calvinism will be the President of Founder's Ministries, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, author and lecturer, Dr. Tom Ascol and James White, president of Alpha and Omega Ministries.


I'm not very informed about the Caner brothers, but it should be interesting. White must be on a debate phase.

 

It depends on the profession you think he's in. I think he's strictly in the business of stirring up controversy and, in so doing, drawing as much attention to himself as possible. He's obviously very good at it. He even has us talking about him. The outfit he wears simply makes his real profession easier. Would we even be discussing what he says if he tried to pass himself off as a plumber?

 

Scott Smith said:

As interesting as this debate sounds, I can't see it going anywhere as Spong doesn't hold to anything whatsoever

I suspect it will go along the same general lines as White's previous debate on the same subject, with Barry Lynn of Americas United for Separation.

Here's a transcript.