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The book of life

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by JMF, Nov 21, 2002.

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  1. JMF

    JMF New Member

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    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    I assume everyone is familiar with the scripture in Rev. 20

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    I also assume everyone will agree that only those who have their name written in the book of life will not be condemned to the lake of fire.

    Who is it that will be blotted out (to those of you that may not know, this signifies that it once was there) of the book of life?
     
    #1 JMF, Nov 21, 2002
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly sure what you are getting at, but if you are trying to say that a person can lose those salvation, post regeneration, I would have to disagree with you. I find that the Bible teaches that all those whom God has effectually called will be glorified according to Romans 8:28-30.

    Ken
     
    #2 KenH, Nov 21, 2002
  3. JMF

    JMF New Member

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    I believe "Once Saved Always Saved", that's not my point.

    My point is: the fact that every person(saved or lost) has or had(those who are condemned do not have their name in the book) their names in the book of life. Which means, by the way, that even a lost person was not condemned when their name was in the book. Therefore they must make a choice that causes it to be removed(blotted out), and as a result they are condemned.
     
    #3 JMF, Nov 21, 2002
  4. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
    - John 3:18

    "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
    - John 3:36
     
    #4 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  5. JMF

    JMF New Member

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    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    So I ask again- Who is it that can be blotted out of the book of life?
     
    #5 JMF, Nov 21, 2002
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Keep going, JMF -- keep pushing them... [​IMG]
     
    #6 Helen, Nov 21, 2002
  7. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    You don't see that this is in direct opposition to what Jesus declares in John 3? A lost person (the one who does not believe) is CONDEMNED ALREADY! Quoting a bunch of verses is not going to change what Jesus said in John 3.
     
    #7 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    For the thirty seconds I have right now -- the Bible does not contradict itself, Rev. There is an option here. Everyone's name is in the Book of Life at birth and, as Paul says in Romans 7, it is not until the law is known that the sin nature we are all born with goes from 'dormant' to 'active' and we disobey intentionally, rebelliously, separating from God.

    Perhaps our names are erased at that point and that is why we MUST be born again so that our names will be there again, only with a new heart governed by the Holy Spirit instead of by sin.

    This takes care of John 3 as well as the verses quoted.

    I'm not going to stay to go on and on here; I have to get Chris to bed and do a lot of other things. But that is the point I would like folks to at least think about.
     
    #8 Helen, Nov 21, 2002
  9. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Revelation 17:8 - "And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world...."

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

    [ November 21, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
    #9 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  10. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    You don't say?!?

    Our young friend's quote is not Bible. It is his own statement. His statement is in contradiction to the Scriptures. Pay attention, Helen.

    [ November 21, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
    #10 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  11. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    There is a problem with your interpretation of Exodus 32:32-33 and Psalms 69:28 since the book of life they would be blotted out of was the book of the living (In other words physical death) It is not a reference to the Book of Life in Revelation.

    Revelation 13:8 states regarding the worship of the Beast, All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In other words those whose names were been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world will not bow down to the Beast but those whose names were written willand Revelation 17:8 gives further clarity And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. The names of the elect were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world while the non elect's names were not written.

    This is the beauty of the Lamb's Book of Life in comparison to the earthly book of life which all nations had. In God's book of Life He states concerning the elect I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Regarding Revelation 22:19 book, this is a bad translation from the KJV and more particulary, the Textus Receptus in that the term Book of Life here is not found in the majority of most manuscripts.

    Jameson Fawcett and Brown state regarding the Textus Receptus reading of Rev. 22:19,
    --None of our manuscripts read this. A, B, Aleph, Vulgate, Syriac, and Coptic read, "(take away his part, that is, portion) from the tree of life," that is, shall deprive him ofparticipation in the tree of life. and from the things--so Vulgate. But A, B, Aleph, Syriac, Coptic, and ANDREAS omit "and"; then "which are written in this book" will refer to "the holy city and the tree of life

    The meaning then of Rev.22:19 then is referring to the judgment that falls on those who reject the Word found in Revelation.

    The NASB, NIV, CEV, NAB, Amplified, ESV more accurately translates it,

    As John Gill stated,
    The worshippers of the beast, or the antichristian party, who are chiefly regarded here, are not written in it, (Revelation 13:8) (17:8) wherefore taking away the part of such, is only taking away that which they seemed to have; see (Luke 8:18) and the sense is, that such shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and will be the portion of all that are not written in the book of life, (Revelation 20:15) . The Alexandrian copy, one of Stephens's, and the Complutensian edition, read, "the tree of life"; and so do the Syriac and Ethiopic versions; the sense is the same; see (John 15:2) and out of the holy city; the new Jerusalem, before described, a part in which is a right to enter into it through the gates, and possess the glories of it: what is mentioned here is only a seeming one, which wicked men may flatter themselves with; and the meaning is, that such shall never enter into it, and enjoy the happiness of it, but shall ever be without
     
    #11 Kiffin, Nov 21, 2002
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    How is the law made known? Is it made known in different ways depending upon one hears the law and the gospel or whether one hears neither?

    Ken
     
    #12 KenH, Nov 21, 2002
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I've been tempted to respond to this before, but I still can't quite make sense of what you're saying. Are you saying that Paul's personal sinful nature was dormant (inactive) until he learned about the law, and that he personally was spiritually "alive" until he learned the law? In other words, he had no need of Christ for salvation until he knew the law?
     
    #13 npetreley, Nov 21, 2002
  14. JMF

    JMF New Member

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    Ahhhh... run baby run

    I wondered how long it would take you to get here.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Question:
    Was the foundation of the world at the time of Jesus' literal death on the cross?

    Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

    Did He die twice?

    I think you have to say God FOREKNEW that He was going to die.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    I think you have to say it is then possible that God FOREKNEW who would have their name blotted out.

    It is most definitely possible, according to scripture, for someone to have their name blotted out of the BOOK OF LIFE.

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    There is a problem with your interpretation of my interpretation of Exodus 32:32-33. You have gone over into what Rev 22:19 warned against:

    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    You are speculating and adding a little to make it fit your theology.

    I want to ask you something else:

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

    Ecclesiastes 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

    Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

    Jeremiah 22:28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?

    Jeremiah 48:38 There shall be lamentation generally upon all the housetops of Moab, and in the streets thereof: for I have broken Moab like a vessel wherein is no pleasure, saith the LORD.

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    If God decreed who would and who would not be saved; why does He contradict Himself and say it's not His "pleasure" that the wicked should die?

    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
     
    #14 JMF, Nov 22, 2002
  15. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Well done, Kiffin! [​IMG]
     
    #15 Rev. G, Nov 22, 2002
  16. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    You are employing faulty logic. "The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world" is a title. He only died once.
     
    #16 Rev. G, Nov 22, 2002
  17. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    1) God does not contradict Himself.

    2) God's decretive will is hidden from us. His will of disposition, revealed in Scripture, shows that He does not delight in the sinful rebellion and consequent destruction of the wicked.
     
    #17 Rev. G, Nov 22, 2002
  18. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Only because Scripture says so. But I think you also have to say that God DETERMINED that He was going to die.

    "Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"
    - Acts 2:23

    "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
    - Acts 4:27-28
     
    #18 Rev. G, Nov 22, 2002
  19. JMF

    JMF New Member

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    I don't argue that, I do, however, argue that God did foreknow but did not determine aforehand who would be condemned.For every one would have been determined to be saved.

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Joel 2:12-13 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

    Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

    Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

    Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

    John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    I must go my bed is calling. Nice talking with you and we'll talk again soon.

    Goodnight and God bless
     
    #19 JMF, Nov 22, 2002
  20. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Then you are in agreement with "single-predestination 'Calvinists'". Such hold that God has predestined some individuals to life, the rest he left to themselves.

    Good-night, friend. Hope you have a peaceful rest.

    Rev. G
     
    #20 Rev. G, Nov 22, 2002
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