The Calvinists have left the building!

Nope. Been busy with other stuff... and you finally answered the question I had been after you one.

It wasn't a good answer nor a biblical one but it was an answer.

 

The basis for any logical debate is agreement that there is a Body of Truth. For Christians that Body of Truth is the Bible. When you deny the clear teaching of Scripture you remove the basis for any logical debate.

On other threads you have consistently denied the teaching of 1 Corinthians 2:14 which states:

KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

NIV The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

NRSV Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You have also incorrectly argued that Scripture such as Romans 8:29, 30 and Ephesians 1:3-6 apply exclusively to the Apostles. You, in effect, splinter the teachings of Scripture to make man sovereign in Salvation.

 

Got bored with your arguments. You have been conclusively answered ad nauseum. Why continue to repeat myself?

 

There's nothing fresh to say. What we have been saying is 2000 years old, since it was first taught by Christ and his apostles and recorded for us in Scripture. How can it be fresh?

 

No it's not. Ours has been defended from Scripture and yours has been refuted from Scripture. Your teaching is not the same teaching we adhere to.

 

How can you claim to be spiritually discerning when you do not understand the distinction that the Apostle Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 2:14 between the natural man and the spiritual man?

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unregenerate man, the spiritual man is the regenerate man.

Your refusal to understand this truth recalls a prophecy from Isaiah and quoted by both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul in reference to the Jews:

Isaiah 6:9, 10
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Since you refuse to understand this truth further discussion is pointless.

 

You will not understand it but there is a difference between regeneration and conversion. However any attempt to explain further would be like casting pearls before swine.

 

such a view is necessitated by a false paradigm, since it is not in accordance with scripture that says that life comes in believing.

 

such a view is necessitated by a false paradigm, since it is not in accordance with scripture that says that life comes in believing. </font>[/QUOTE]Paradigm is a fancy word but you apparently do not understand Scripture any better than WES. Ephesians 2:1-10 clearly teaches that God gives life to those who are dead in trespass and sin [That is called regeneration.] and next gives these who have been regenerated faith by which they can effectually respond to the Gospel using their God given faith [That is called conversion.].

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

I recognize that those who believe their salvation lies within themselves will not accept the Biblical teaching that Salvation is solely the work of God but that is their problem.

 

Maybe there is a difference in Calvinism, but this is not found anywhere an the entire Bible. Before you make such bold statements, why don't you Calvinists support your nonsense from the Word of God? I challenge any Calvinist to show from Scripture, that Regeneration and Conversion are not one and the same thing. I am not interested in your warped theological nonsense, but Biblical data.

 

What a complete load of "bull", Larry! Your position defended from Scripture? You live in dream world. It is Calvinism, and NOT Scripture that makes God insincere in His offer of the Gospel to to everyone without exception, since evenyone without exception was not provided for in the Atnement of Christ, which is a requirement for the offer to be sincere. It is Calvinism, and NOT Scripture that teaches that God perordained and willed the fall, and that the sinful actions of all human beings are "caused" by the Holy Spirit.

So, don't come out with this nonsense that what Calvinists believe, is what Scripture teaches, since this is NOT the case. You may have convinced yourself that this is the case, in which case you are sadly deluded.

 

And you have interpreted this passage out of Ephesians 2 1-10,

to be Regeneration. Even though regeneration is not spoken or even described here. The scripture does not establish a how or when this bringing us to life with Christ happens, only that it does happen. </font>[/QUOTE]Well Outwest, after 2492 posts, you got one thing correct. Ephesians 2:4 does describe regeneration: God even when we were dead in our sins, brought us to life with Christ. In the remainder of your post you are incorrect as usual.

Wes! Wes! Wes!

We are not discussing the conception and birth of children here. I suspect that most people on this Forum know that the gestation period for humans is 9 months. We are not talking about a human act. I realize that you make man sovereign in salvation but you are incorrect. God is sovereign in Salvation and regeneration is an act of God as clearly shown in the passage Ephesians 2:4. If I accepted the deluded logic in your argument above that would mean we could have what, people who were 10% saved and 90% lost, 50% saved and 50% lost, 90%saved and 10% lost or even 99.9 % saved and 0.1 % lost, and all possible combinations in between!!! What happens if these people die during this long torturous process? Do we have half saved people in heaven or a half of a saved person in heaven, or do we have to invent a purgatory where the salvation process can be completed?

Wes! Wes! Wes! Contrary to your misguided logic regenetation is instantaneous.

[However, since you don't believe in instantaneous regeneration because God is apparently impotent, what would you say is the gestation period for regeneration, 9 months, or more, or less? God created Adam on the 6th day. Does it take Him longer to regenerate a person? Just curious!]