The Campbellite Plan Of Redemption

Yes, I do.

Of course, what you or I or anyone thinks about a person's salvation is irrelevant since none of us has a say in the matter.

By the way, I have heard lots of Church of Christ members refer to themselves as saved.

 

Oops!

**DOUBLE DOUBLE POST POST**

 

I disagree, Mark. Being an ex-Church of Christ member I know that you are wrong in that statement.

 

1) Because he is saved at that moment when he is thinking.

2) Okay. I am an ex-Church of Christ member and when I was a Church of Christ member I would have told you that I knew I was going to Heaven.

3) I would suggest that you get out more often.

 

Mark,

bmerr here. I am a member of the church of Christ, (what you refer to as a Campbellite), and would be happy to help you understand my position, which is what KenH apparently used to hold to.

Regarding salvation, there is an aspect of the "already", and the "not yet" for the Christian. Paul adresses the "not yet" part in 1 Cor 9:27, where he wrote,

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Please notice that Paul was not concerned about his rewards, but "I myself". He goes on in 1 Cor 10 to illustrate his point by showing how Israel had all come out of Egypt, and shared the same spiritual meat and drink. However, Paul points out that "...with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness" (1 Cor 10:5).

He goes on to warn them of specific sins such as idolatry, fornication, tempting Christ, and murmuring, all of which resulted in the Israelites being destroyed in one way or another (10:7-10).

He then repeats the fact that these things were to serve as examples for Christians (see 10:6), and were meant to admonish us.

Paul wraps it up with these words,

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Question: Why would Paul warn of something that could not happen?

What does a believer become if he stops believing? An unbeliever.

So Paul was already saved out of the power of darkness, and had been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Col 1:13), but he needed to exercise self control over his own passions and lusts so he would not end up as a castaway (1 Cor 9:27). He was still intent upon attaining unto the resurrection of the dead (Phil 3:11). He had not yet attained to it (Phil 3:12).

I hope this helps. Hope to hear from you soon.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Being by nature an optimistic sort, I truly believed when I was a Church of Christ member that I would not to into apostasy. Then, again, even several years before I left the Church of Christ by reading a portion of Charles Stanley's book on eternal security I became convinced of the correctness of the doctrine of the preservation of the saints.

 

Mark,

bmerr here. This comment,

prompts me to ask, "Does your Heb 12 read the same as mine?" You seem to have a very different understanding of it than I do. Not that I'm right and you're wrong, necessarily, but I'm not sure of how you use the text to uphold OSAS.

Also, there are other texts that show your comment to be true, but not how you may think.

2 Pet 2:18-22 shows that those who leave Christ to return to the lusts of the world are punished more severly than those who never come to Christ at all.

2 Pet 3:17 is another. For lack of time, I'll let you look them up on your own. Talk to you later.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Mark,

bmerr here. 2 Pet 2:20-21 reads,

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are then entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have know the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment given unto them."

What is the end of a person who never knows Christ? Is it not eternal punishment in hell?

The text states quite clearly that if one escapes the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ, and then is overcome in them again, the end is worse than it would have been if they had not known Christ. What other options are there but more severe punishment in hell?

If the person in question went to heaven, but lost his rewards (as some may want to argue), it would still be better than being in hell forever, would it not?

Concerning 1 Cor 11, did you miss the part about eating and drinking damnation to one's self? In Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1) for those who walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. What about those in Christ who choose to walk after the flesh? Don't say it's not possible.

Ever hear of Demas? Once spoken of by Paul alongside of Luke the beloved physician (Col 4:14), but later on, Paul reports to Timothy that, "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica" (2 tim 4:10). What do you suppose his latter end will be?

And the words about chastisement of the Lord in Heb 12 precede an exhortation about

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of (fall from - marg.) the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

God's refusal to reward unfaithfulness with eternity in Heaven does not make Him a despot.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Mark,

bmerr here. The text says that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

There is a distinction made between the "latter end" and the person ("them").

Peter is not saying this person will be a worse person, he is saying that this persons' "latter end" will be worse.

How can this be speaking of anything but his eternal abode?

No, I saw that, too. The text says that "...we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

There is a distinction here between the chastening of the Lord and the condemnation of the world. The reason for the Lords' chastening of us is to bring us to repentance, thus avoiding being condemned with the world.

Could it be that in 11:30 we have both the chastened, and the unrepentant (weak and sickly vs. sleep)?

For the Christian who walks in the light as he is in the light (1 John 1:7), there is no judgement for sin, for the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth such a one from all sin.

Just as it is written in Rom 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation [damnation/judgement] to them which are in Christ Jesus [Christians], who walk not after the flesh [in sin], but after the Spirit [in the light]."

So his latter end will be worse than if he had never known the way of righteousness, right?

Which would have been his end had he not known the way of righteousness, but now his latter end is worse. How do you reconcile that?

Mark, what is the Christian's birthrite? Esau, it's true, sold his earthly birthrite for a cup-o-soup, not necessarily his eternal life. But the Hebrew writer uses Esau as an example by which to warn his Christian audience not to fall into fornication, or profanity, lest they should sell their Christian birthrite for the proverbial "cup-o-soup".

So I ask you, what does the Christian stand to inherit? What is the Christian's birthrite?

First, by saying the unfaithful Christian will not go to hell, you imply that the unfaithful Christian will go to heaven. This is the same as saying that God rewards unfaithfulness with heaven.

Second, I'm not a Campbellite, and I'm employing no ruse. I am a Christian, nothing more and nothing less. I don't know why you insist on using names other than those used by the Bible. It must be a denominational thing...

In 1 John 2:15, it is written,

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

Paul says in 2 Tim 4:10, "for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world..."

In James 4:4 it is written,

"Ye adulterers and adulteressess, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Demas loved the world. He was the enemy of God, though he had been faithful before. God's vengeance on Demas would be as to an enemy who had once sworn by the blood of Christ (by obedience to the gospel) to be a friend. He would execute vengeance upon one who had betrayed his covenant with His Son.

I can go with that.

Right, God chastens us as a loving father, and this precedes an exhortation to endure so as not to be like Esau and sell your Christian birthrite.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Mark,

bmerr here. If you can tell me one thing I've been taught that originated during the lifetime of Alexander Campbell, I'll give you $100.00. I will gladly give you book, chapter, and verse for every point of doctrine I speak of.

The church of Christ is not "non-denominational", she is anti-denominational, being opposed to "...them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned..." (Rom 16:17). Jesus didn't build a division, which is what a denomination is.

Just briefly, you are misusing 1 Cor 3:15. If "he himself" means every Christian, then what was Paul worried about when he said , "...lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27)? He wasn't concerned with his rewards, he was concerned for himself.

Gotta run.

In Christ,

bmerr