The Case for Protestantism

[Mikey]

Gavin Ortlund discusses the meaning of Protestantism as a renewal movement within the church. He emphasizes that Protestantism is not a rejection of other Christian traditions, but a reform and renewal effort based on the authority of Scripture. He also addresses the issue of institutional exclusivism and highlights the Protestant emphasis on the catholicity of the Church. Additionally, he explains his concerns with dogmas around the veneration of icons and the bodily assumption of Mary. The conversation explores the concepts of infallibility and authority within Protestantism, and the importance of abiding in Christ for assurance. The discussion concludes with a reflection on denominational identity and the need for Protestants to rediscover their rich historical roots.

 

[Cathode]

They never really address the big hairy mammoth in the room.

 

[Mikey]

 

[Mikey]

 

[Mikey]

 

[Cathode]

This Gavin Ortlund bloke isn’t intellectually honest.

“ In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ , and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.” Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Trallians 3

His conception of Church doesn’t fit with disciple of John at all.

What Ignatius is talking about is truly an Authoritive Church Government under the Bishop.

When Gavin says the Presbyters are seen as successors of the Apostles by Ignatius and not the Bishop, it’s a devious slight of hand. He knows that the Bishop is first a Presbyter before becoming Bishop, and remains a Presbyter as well as Bishop.

It is these devious slights of hand that are an act away from truth.

Only those who love the truth are worthy of the truth.

 

[Cathode]

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again.” Ignatius Letter to the Smyrnaeans 107 Ad.

Ignatius disciple of John believes the Eucharist is Jesus flesh and that it is vital to receive it for our own bodily resurrection.

As Jesus says in John.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “

John’s own disciple tells us that the Eucharist is Jesus flesh and it has the force of the Resurrection for us.
And says that those that refuse the Eucharist incur death to themselves.

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. “

Is the disciple of John kidding around, no. Refusing the Eucharist is to be truly Left Behind is what he is saying.

“Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth ] the unity of His blood; one Altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.” Ignatius Letter to the Philadelphians 4 107 Ad.

Jesus Flesh and Blood is Life and has the force of resurrection and by eating Jesus Flesh and drinking His Blood we receive eternal life and resurrection to our bodies.

“As the Living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me”

Many down the ages refuse the invitation to this feast making their excuses.

 

[Cathode]

See this is where this Gavin bloke totally ignores the obvious.

There is no final arbiter in Protestantism who decides what it means to be Protestant.
Everyone has his own ideas. Look at all the statements of faith that oppose each other and all claim the Bible alone as the source.

The dudes not being intellectually honest. He’s ignoring the mammoth in the room.

 

[GentleGospeller]

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again.” Ignatius Letter to the Smyrnaeans 107 Ad.

Ignatius disciple of John believes the Eucharist is Jesus flesh and that it is vital to receive it for our own bodily resurrection.

As Jesus says in John.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “

John’s own disciple tells us that the Eucharist is Jesus flesh and it has the force of the Resurrection for us.
And says that those that refuse the Eucharist incur death to themselves.

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. “

Is the disciple of John kidding around, no. Refusing the Eucharist is to be truly Left Behind is what he is saying.

“Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth ] the unity of His blood; one Altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.” Ignatius Letter to the Philadelphians 4 107 Ad.

Jesus Flesh and Blood is Life and has the force of resurrection and by eating Jesus Flesh and drinking His Blood we receive eternal life and resurrection to our bodies.

“As the Living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me”

Many down the ages refuse the invitation to this feast making their excuses.

The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/KillenIgnatius.pdf

Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Vol. I. The Apostolic Fathers. Ediburgh: T. and T. Clark, 38, George Street. MDCCCLXVII (1867). The Epistles of Ignatius (Shorter and Longer) Introductory Notice; pages 139-140

“... [page 139] It is now the universal opinion of critics, that the first eight of these professedly Ignatian letters are spurious. They bear in themselves indubitable proofs of being the production of a later age than that in which Ignatius lived. Neither [page 139-140] Eusebius nor Jerome makes the least reference to them; and they are now by common consent set aside as forgeries, which were at various dates, and to serve special purposes, put forth under the name of the celebrated Bishop of Antioch.” - Ante-Nicene Christian Library: The Apostolic fathers (1870)

Ante-Nicene Christian Library: The Apostolic fathers (1870)

books.google.com

History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff Vol. II. Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. Ninth Edition. New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1910, page 145

“... [page 145] The whole story of Ignatius is more legendary than real, and his writings are subject to grave suspicion of fraudulent interpolation. We have three different versions of the Ignatian Epistles, but only one of them can be genuine; either the smaller Greek version, or the lately discovered Syriac.1 In the latter, which contains only three epistles, most of the passages on the episcopate are wanting, indeed; yet the leading features of the institution appear even here" - History of the Christian Church

A Manual of Church History by Albertt Henry Newman, D.D., LL.D. Professor of Church History in Baylor University, Department Editor of Church History for New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, Author of “A history of the Baptist Churches in the United States”, “A History of Anti-Pedobaptism,”, etc. Volume I Ancient and Mediaeval Church History (To A.D. 1517) Fourth Thousand, Philadelphia American Baptist Publication Society, 1906., pages 222,223,227

“... [page 222] We have three distinct forms of the Ignatian Epistles, differing greatly as to number, length, and substance. (a) The longer Greek form is now universally regarded as a gross fabrication, and is supposed to have been composed in the fourth, fifth, or sixth cen-tury. It is full of anachronisms ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

“... [page 223] the shorter Greek form ... Some accept these writings as in the main genuine, but suppose them to have been interpolated to a very considerable extant. ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

“... [page 227] the epistles have been interpolated beyond almost any other document of history. ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

The Apostolic Fathers with an English translation by Kirsopp Lake, in Two Volumes, I; I Clement, II Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas; London : William Heinemann, New York : The Macmillan Co. MCMXII, page 168

“... [page 168] 2. The short recension. – It was early seen that the long recension contained several letters which were clearly not genuine, and that those which had the most claim to acceptance, as having been mentioned by Eusebius, were greatly corrupted by obvious interpolations. ...

... The text of this recension is nowhere extant in a pure form. ...” - The Apostolic Fathers : in two volumes. 1. I Clement, II Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas

The Contemporary Review, Volume XXV. (25) December, 1874 – May, 1875, Strahan 7 Co., Publishers, Paternoster Row, London, 1875; pages 339-340

“... [page 339] The Ignatian question is the most perplexing which confronts the student of early Church History. ...

... The author of Supernatural Religion has no hesitation on the subject. “The whole of the Ignatian literature,” he writes, “is a [page 339-340] mass of falsification and fraud.”* “It is not possible,” he says, “even if the Epistle [to the Smyrnaeans] were genuine, which it is not, to base any such conclusion upon these words.” †

And again:-

“We must, however, go much further, and assert that none of the Epistles have any value as evidence for an earlier period than the end of the second, or beginning of the third, century, even if they have any value at all.” ‡

An immediately afterwards: -

“We have just seen that the martyr-journey of Ignatius to Rome is, for cogent reasons, declared to be wholly fabulous, and the Epistles purporting to be written during that journey must be held to be spurious.” § ... * P. 269. † P. 270 ‡ P. 274. § P. 274 ...” - The Contemporary Review

The Contemporary Review

books.google.com

 

[Cathode]

The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/KillenIgnatius.pdf

Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Vol. I. The Apostolic Fathers. Ediburgh: T. and T. Clark, 38, George Street. MDCCCLXVII (1867). The Epistles of Ignatius (Shorter and Longer) Introductory Notice; pages 139-140

“... [page 139] It is now the universal opinion of critics, that the first eight of these professedly Ignatian letters are spurious. They bear in themselves indubitable proofs of being the production of a later age than that in which Ignatius lived. Neither [page 139-140] Eusebius nor Jerome makes the least reference to them; and they are now by common consent set aside as forgeries, which were at various dates, and to serve special purposes, put forth under the name of the celebrated Bishop of Antioch.” - Ante-Nicene Christian Library: The Apostolic fathers (1870)

Ante-Nicene Christian Library: The Apostolic fathers (1870)

books.google.com

History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff Vol. II. Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. Ninth Edition. New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1910, page 145

“... [page 145] The whole story of Ignatius is more legendary than real, and his writings are subject to grave suspicion of fraudulent interpolation. We have three different versions of the Ignatian Epistles, but only one of them can be genuine; either the smaller Greek version, or the lately discovered Syriac.1 In the latter, which contains only three epistles, most of the passages on the episcopate are wanting, indeed; yet the leading features of the institution appear even here" - History of the Christian Church

A Manual of Church History by Albertt Henry Newman, D.D., LL.D. Professor of Church History in Baylor University, Department Editor of Church History for New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, Author of “A history of the Baptist Churches in the United States”, “A History of Anti-Pedobaptism,”, etc. Volume I Ancient and Mediaeval Church History (To A.D. 1517) Fourth Thousand, Philadelphia American Baptist Publication Society, 1906., pages 222,223,227

“... [page 222] We have three distinct forms of the Ignatian Epistles, differing greatly as to number, length, and substance. (a) The longer Greek form is now universally regarded as a gross fabrication, and is supposed to have been composed in the fourth, fifth, or sixth cen-tury. It is full of anachronisms ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

“... [page 223] the shorter Greek form ... Some accept these writings as in the main genuine, but suppose them to have been interpolated to a very considerable extant. ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

“... [page 227] the epistles have been interpolated beyond almost any other document of history. ...” - A Manual of Church History: Ancient and medi val church history (to A. D. 1517)

The Apostolic Fathers with an English translation by Kirsopp Lake, in Two Volumes, I; I Clement, II Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas; London : William Heinemann, New York : The Macmillan Co. MCMXII, page 168

“... [page 168] 2. The short recension. – It was early seen that the long recension contained several letters which were clearly not genuine, and that those which had the most claim to acceptance, as having been mentioned by Eusebius, were greatly corrupted by obvious interpolations. ...

... The text of this recension is nowhere extant in a pure form. ...” - The Apostolic Fathers : in two volumes. 1. I Clement, II Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas

The Contemporary Review, Volume XXV. (25) December, 1874 – May, 1875, Strahan 7 Co., Publishers, Paternoster Row, London, 1875; pages 339-340

“... [page 339] The Ignatian question is the most perplexing which confronts the student of early Church History. ...

... The author of Supernatural Religion has no hesitation on the subject. “The whole of the Ignatian literature,” he writes, “is a [page 339-340] mass of falsification and fraud.”* “It is not possible,” he says, “even if the Epistle [to the Smyrnaeans] were genuine, which it is not, to base any such conclusion upon these words.” †

And again:-

“We must, however, go much further, and assert that none of the Epistles have any value as evidence for an earlier period than the end of the second, or beginning of the third, century, even if they have any value at all.” ‡

An immediately afterwards: -

“We have just seen that the martyr-journey of Ignatius to Rome is, for cogent reasons, declared to be wholly fabulous, and the Epistles purporting to be written during that journey must be held to be spurious.” § ... * P. 269. † P. 270 ‡ P. 274. § P. 274 ...” - The Contemporary Review

The Contemporary Review

books.google.com

The seven genuine epistles of Ignatius are accepted by the majority almost unanimous protestant and Apostolic scholars for the last 150 years.

In fact it was protestant scholars that proved the authenticity of the seven Ignatian epistles.
J.B Lightfoot Anglican and Theodor Zahn Orthodox Lutheran.

Jaroslav Pelikan born 1923, died 2006 was a Lutheran pastor, scholar and historian who, in 1998, converted to the Eastern Orthodox.
He credited these two with proving the seven genuine Ignatian Epistles.

“Again it was Protestant historical scholarship that vindicated the authenticity of the seven epistles. Theodor Zahn, an orthodox Lutheran, published his defense in 1873. And from 1885 to 1889, Joseph B. Lightfoot, by then the Anglican bishop of Durham, wrote the definitive analysis of the evidence, together with a detailed history of the research into it. The highly developed hierarchical conceptions of the bishop of Antioch were not at all congenial to Zahn, nor even to Bishop Lightfoot, just as, for that matter, the omission of references to the primacy of the bishop of Rome in the epistles of Ignatius was a puzzle to his Roman Catholic interpreters. But both Zahn and Lightfoot developed their literary, textual, and historical analysis with such careful attention to methodology and sound scholarship that there is now virtually unanimous acceptance of the seven epistles in their middle recension. The dispute was not settled by a prioritheories about doctrinal development on either side, but by philological history and honest historical research into the facts of the development.”

We also have the writings of the Church Fathers mentioning the 7 Epistles of Ignatius. Even from where they were written.

“These things he wrote from the above-mentioned city to the Churches referred to. And when he had left Smyrna he wrote again from Troas to the Philadelphians and to the church of Smyrna; and particularly to Polycarp, who presided over the latter church. And since he knew him well as an apostolic man, he commended to him, like a true and good shepherd, the flock at Antioch, and besought him to care diligently for it.” Eusebius 36 10

Jerome also lists Ignatius’ seven epistles.

It was top protestant scholars that proved Ignatius’ epistles as genuine, and the Church Fathers themselves.

 

[37818]

The seven genuine epistles of Ignatius are accepted by the majority almost unanimous protestant and Apostolic scholars for the last 150 years.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/are-all-the-letters-of-ignatius-of-antioch-forgeries.123045/post-2758382