• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Christ of arminianism

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
pLug said:
“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

Bam. An incredible response to the young ruler asking “the good master” an academic philosophical question concerning the nature of salvation. The young man has a moral dilemma that he wants to bring before what he regards as a good master.

“Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.”

Suddenly this young find himself face to face, not with the good master, but God himself.
He provides a distinctly non-academic, non-philosophical answer, one that cuts to the core of the young man. The same call that made the disciples drop their nets and take up their cross: Follow me.
In rejecting this call, the young man went away exposed, and sorrowful.

This example leads me to believe that salvation is offered to all, and some reject it. This defies Calvinistic theology. And I think it proves my point exceptionally well.

True enough - for "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

God is "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment" John 16.

And God is "Drawing ALL MANKIND to Himself" John 12:32.

So many references to the "God that so love the WORLD..." yes "really".

So many references to the God that "Sent His son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:10

So many references to the God that "Sent his son to be the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins AND not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 to convince the objective Calvinist - that Calvinism is dead wrong.

(Not 3 point Calvinism of course - for they would agree with all of the above - verbatim)

In Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

beloved57

Member
BobRyan said:
True enough - for "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

God is "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment" John 16.

And God is "Drawing ALL MANKIND to Himself" John 12:32.

So many references to the "God that so love the WORLD..." yes "really".

So many references to the God that "Sent His son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:10

So many references to the God that "Sent his son to be the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins AND not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 to convince the objective Calvinist - that Calvinism is dead wrong.

(Not 3 point Calvinism of course - for they would agree with all of the above - verbatim)

In Christ,

Bob


God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, you are reading into the context.

2 pet 3 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Who is the usward ? Lets go back to the beginning of the letter !

2 pet 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

the word obtain = a) to receive by divine allotment, obtain


By the way bob, I must caution you about something as you believe you are teaching Gods word !

prov 30 6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
 

pLug

New Member
Question :
If you believe God chooses the elect, what do you have that the other non elect doesn’t have that God would choose you?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Dustin

New Member
pLug said:
Question :
If you believe God chooses the elect, what do you have that the other non elect doesn’t have that God would choose you?

Absolutely nothing. We've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God chooses according to His own good pleasure according to His own good purpose.

Roman 9:14-16 (AV) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
beloved57 said:
God is not willing that any of the elect should perish 2Peter 3:

you are reading into the context sir and it is blatant. nothing in 2Peter 3 says "God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish" so you made it up -- but it is instructive that "you needed to do it".

"We" are those that are lost in Romans 5 -- the ALL mankind that is doomed by the sin of Adam. And God "so loved the WORLD that He gave" for he is loving suffering towards US -

The wooden limits of Calvinism inserted into the text makes it appear that Peter thinks God only loves the disciples or only loves those Christians alive at the time of Peter -- this calvinist argument fails before it even gets off the ground.

In Christ,

Bob.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Originally Posted by beloved57
God is not willing that any of the elect should perish 2Peter 3:
That is just going too far to try and prove Calvinism. I am glad we don't have to change any of the scriptures to prove our theology.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Plug asks

what do you have that the other non elect doesn’t have that God would choose you?

Dustin answers accurately for Calvinism

Dustin said:
Absolutely nothing. We've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God chooses according to His own good pleasure according to His own good purpose.

Roman 9:14-16 (AV) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Let's be very clear about Dustin's point above - Given two people ONE selected and one not -- The argument here is --

#1. God is selecting some for Heaven and not others.
#2. The difference is NOT in the person -- nothing about person-A determines that they should be SELECTED whereas person-B should not!
#3. God simply favors one - and not the other. It is his OWN sovereign choice having nothing at all to do with the two PEOPLE involved.

In Christ,

Bob
 

beloved57

Member
Brother Bob said:
That is just going too far to try and prove Calvinism. I am glad we don't have to change any of the scriptures to prove our theology.

But you do change scripture, I have not seen anything you have posted that is not corrupted with your humanism..
 

beloved57

Member
BobRyan said:
you are reading into the context sir and it is blatant. nothing in 2Peter 3 says "God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish" so you made it up -- but it is instructive that "you needed to do it".

"We" are those that are lost in Romans 5 -- the ALL mankind that is doomed by the sin of Adam. And God "so loved the WORLD that He gave" for he is loving suffering towards US -

The wooden limits of Calvinism inserted into the text makes it appear that Peter thinks God only loves the disciples or only loves those Christians alive at the time of Peter -- this calvinist argument fails before it even gets off the ground.

In Christ,

Bob.

you are showing you ignorance sir by just wrenching scriptures out of context to prove your heresie ! You better take a course in hermenutics 1 :laugh:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Since b57 ran out of gas on this one...a little help for his 4pt, 5pt calvinist argument is provided here ...

Originally Posted by pLug
Question :
If you believe God chooses the elect, what do you have that the other non elect doesn’t have that God would choose you?



This is what we call "arbitrary selection" in the platform of Calvinism.

See it in living color here --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...2&postcount=52

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
And since B57 ran out of gas on this one too --

Originally Posted by BobRyan to Beloved57 regarding 2Pet3
you are reading into the context sir and it is blatant. nothing in 2Peter 3 says "God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish" so you made it up -- but it is instructive that "you needed to do it".

"We" are those that are lost in Romans 5 -- the ALL mankind that is doomed by the sin of Adam. And God "so loved the WORLD that He gave" for he is loving suffering towards US -

The wooden limits of Calvinism inserted into the text makes it appear that Peter thinks God only loves the disciples or only loves those Christians alive at the time of Peter -- this calvinist argument fails before it even gets off the ground.

In Christ,

Bob.
 

I Am Blessed 24

Active Member
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I don't see here where it mentions the 'elect'.
 

beloved57

Member
I Am Blessed 16 says

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I don't see here where it mentions the 'elect'.


This passage is teaching that those calling on the name of the lord are already in a saved state of being !

It does not say that they will get saved by calling upon the name of the lord. But they shall be saved. Them believing and calling upon the name of the lord proves that they are not in a condemed state !

Not calling upon or believing on the lord is proof that you are in a condemned state:

jn 3 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John plainly is saying, he that believeth on him proves that he is not condemned, he that believeth not proves he is condemned.


Here is a good article, lord willing, that could give you understanding..

I could not find my link, but here is the article..

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"
In a word, YES, but not for the reasons most people think. However, those who believe in what is called High Calvinism or Unconditional Election and Predestination or Particular Redemption such as the Primitive Baptists, some times say, No, you don't have to believe in order to be saved. This difficulty arises from a misconception, sometimes in both Calvinists and Arminians, about what it means to be saved.
First, the Bible makes a distinction between being saved eternally (eternal life) and being saved in time (conversion). That does not mean that eternal salvation and salvation in time are mutually exclusive. The fact is one begets the other. Salvation is a broad term that encompasses both eternal life and conversion. Therefore, those who experience eternal life will likewise experience conversion. But confusion arises when a failure is made to distinguish the meaning of a small but significant word be.
Most modern Christians, because of false theology, think the scriptures teach that to be means the same thing as to get. However, there is an important difference between the two. If the Bible taught that one must believe in order to get saved, then salvation would be by our own effort. But the Bible teaches one must believe in order to be saved. The word be indicates a statement of fact. The word get indicates a condition to be met.
What's the difference? Mark 16:16 states, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Clearly this scripture is talking about salvation in both its temporal and eternal aspect. Many Christians today have been taught that scriptures such as this one mean you must believe in order to get saved. But that is not at all what Christ said. The term "shall be saved" is translated from the Greek word sodzo. In this passage the verb sodzo is in the Future Tense, Passive Voice, Indicative Mood. The Online Bible says, "The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact." Because sodzo is written in the indicative mood, it means the salvation Christ has under consideration is not and cannot be a condition to be met. It means that belief is the evidence or assurance of salvation not the means to obtain salvation. It means that everyone who has been saved or will "be saved" will believe in Christ as a matter of fact. Thus, as this scripture demonstrates, belief is necessary because of salvation not to get salvation.
If Christ had rendered sodzo in the imperative mood, then one would be correct in saying you must believe in order to get saved. The Online Bible defines the imperative mood as that which, "expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding." A good example of a scripture with an imperative command is found in the Great Commission. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Mathew 28:19. "Teach" is from the Greek word matheteuo. This verb is written in the imperative mood and expresses a clear command to the disciples to teach the nations Christ's doctrine.
Another example of sodzo is found in Ro 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. And again in Ro 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In both of these scriptures sodzo is rendered in the indicative mood. Therefore it is a statement of fact that anyone who confesses belief in Jesus and His resurrection, calling upon His name from the heart, will be saved. Because the mood is indicative, it is not the belief, confession or sincerity that results in the saving, either in time or in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Saviour. He saves with the power of his shed blood and by grace alone delivers the sinner from death. Belief, confession and sincerity from the heart are all the result of Christ's saving work not the cause or means to obtain that saving work.
The recipients of this sovereign saving work of Christ are referred to in the scriptures as my sheep, His People, my people, the chosen, the elect and Israel (spiritual). John 10:27, Mathew 1:21, II Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 1:4, II Timothy 2:10, Romans 9:6-24.
It is true that one doesn't have to believe in order to get saved but the Bible teaches a person must believe to be saved.
Elder James Taylor
 

beloved57

Member
BobRyan said:
And since B57 ran out of gas on this one too --

Originally Posted by BobRyan to Beloved57 regarding 2Pet3
you are reading into the context sir and it is blatant. nothing in 2Peter 3 says "God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish" so you made it up -- but it is instructive that "you needed to do it".

"We" are those that are lost in Romans 5 -- the ALL mankind that is doomed by the sin of Adam. And God "so loved the WORLD that He gave" for he is loving suffering towards US -

The wooden limits of Calvinism inserted into the text makes it appear that Peter thinks God only loves the disciples or only loves those Christians alive at the time of Peter -- this calvinist argument fails before it even gets off the ground.

In Christ,

Bob.

Anyone who is a true believer knows and understands that God only loves His elect, his chosen ones:

rom 9

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e]

Now go ahead and change scripture to fit your ungodly humanism..
 

I Am Blessed 24

Active Member
This passage is teaching that those calling on the name of the lord are already in a saved state of being!

What kind of a church do you attend? Oh, that's right. You don't attend a church...

I don't know about YOU, but I was not saved until I called on the name of the Lord! Then I became a new creature! Old things were passed away and all things became new!!!

BTW, Lord should be capitalized if you have any reverence for Him at all.

10.gif
 
Top