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The Christ of arminianism

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
DHK to B57

This statement in itself is blasphemous.
What gives you the right to make such statements?
Are you the judge of the heart.

Your posts have been very arrogant.

This is very instructive. DHK is himself a Calvinist but is willing to call B57 to account for his wild extremist posts on this thread.

In the past I have complained that Calvinists have been slow to "clean their own house" and in some cases left it up to Arminians like me to do it for them. But that is not the case when it comes to B57's errors - Calvinists themselves are moved to call "foul".

I for one am glad to see it - and I am willing to acknowledge the deed when it is actually done.

This is not to say that ALL Calvinists can bring themselves to that level of objectivity. Dustin's comment (post #2 on this thread) stands out by stark contrast to DHK's above -

Dustin said:
Dustin to B57

In the words of Ed Edwards:

Amen brother, PREACH IT! :thumbs:

In Christ.

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE:

Give it a thought how I, just I, got saved. Forget the masses. Maybe you'll realise it was because God in His love chose me. Now if nothing I have ever done could not prevent God or hinder Him in His condescending love towards unworthy ME, how could anything I could ever do in future, prevent or hinder Him in this overpowering, overruling, conquering, almighty powerful love and choice of His? You think God couls fail? Then just maybe again, you haven't seen nothing yet of God's saving grace!

God "sovereignly CHOSE the free will system we see described in scripture" - Calvinists continually complain that when they pretend to be God they still can't figure out how He does it!!

So every time they do that - as GE has tried to do above - I simply say to them "It is really TOUGH to be God isn't it GE!"

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
beloved57 said:
All those references are speaking about the elect...:sleeping_2:

no they are not - SINCE John shows at the start of John1 that the WORLD is "the WORLD that God MADE" that INCLUDES the CHOSEN nation of God that REJECTED Him - "His OWN knew Him Not"

As each inconvenient detail of scripture is shown to debunk extreme Calvinism - we simply enjoy pointing it out -- again and again:type: :applause:

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
beloved57 said:
Believe this , if you are not one of Gods elect, you will perish in your sins. At this point sir there is no evidence that you are one of Gods elect, the way you blaspheme...

Is that really your "substantive" response to post 117????

How sad.
And yet - how "instructive" that you would choose to ignore all the salient Bible points of the argument that so fully debunks your wild extremist positions with a handwaiving statement like that.

I feel the need to repost - the unnanswered Post-117.

I hope you will enjoy it this time.

In Christ,

Bob
 
BR: As each inconvenient detail of scripture is shown to debunk extreme Calvinism

HP: As each inconvenient detail of so called “3-point Calvinism” is exposed, it raises it’s head in it’s true perspective, i.e., plain old Calvinism. To try and stop Calvinism at a mere three points, is like trying to stop gravity from affecting the downward course of a brick dropped from a tall building. The notion that Calvinism could be limited to three points or the notion that the 'extreme ends' can be logically avoided by only holding to three of its foundational tenants, is simply absurd.

 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: As each inconvenient detail of so called “3-point Calvinism” is exposed, it raises it’s head in it’s true perspective, i.e., plain old Calvinism. To try and stop Calvinism at a mere three points, is like trying to stop gravity from affecting the downward course of a brick dropped from a tall building. The notion that Calvinism could be limited to three points or the notion that the 'extreme ends' can be logically avoided by only holding to three of its foundational tenants, is simply absurd.

do you think DHK is promoting 3 Point calvinism?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
While there may be inconsistencies - I think 3 Point Calvinists still view themselves as 3 Point Calvinists. (At least the ones I run across). The question is - is DHK making that argument?
 

AAA

New Member
beloved57 said:
What about Arminianism ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Christ of Arminianism
(Freewillism)
Rev. Steven Houck
The Bible warns us that in the last days in which we live there will be many false Christs-those who claim to be Christ but who are imposters. Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matt. 24:4-5). We who profess to be Christians must take heed. We must be very careful that we are not deceived. Our calling is to trust, love, and follow the true Christ and Him only. We may have nothing to do with the false Christs who are so numerous in our day.

We know about the Christ of the cults and other religions. He is a good man, a prophet, the first creation of God, a great spirit, a divine idea, or even a god himself. But he is not true and eternal God. He receives his existence from another who is greater than he. He is not the Christ of the Bible. We are not deceived by this Christ. He is a false Christ.

We know about the Christ of Roman Catholicism. They profess that He is true God. He suffered and died for the forgiveness of sin. He arose again, ascended into heaven, and is coming again. But he is not a complete Savior. The Christ of the Roman Catholics can not save sinners without their own good works and the intercession of priests. He is not the Christ of the Bible. We are not deceived by this Christ. He is a false Christ.

There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism. He has deceived people for many years and he continues to deceive millions. This Christ is so dangerous that, if it were not impossible, he would deceive the very elect (Matt. 24:24). He is the Christ of Arminianism.

This false Christ is extremely dangerous because in many ways he appears to be the True Christ. They say that he is true God, equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. They say that he died on the cross to save sinners. They even say that he saves by his grace alone, without the work of man. This Christ will have nothing to do with the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism.

But watch out! Be warned! The Christ of Arminianism is not the Christ of the Bible. Do not be fooled!

1. The Christ of Arminianism - loves every individual person in the world and sincerely desires their salvation.

The Christ of the Bible - earnestly loves and desires the salvation of only those whom God has unconditionally chosen to salvation. (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 7:11, Ps. 11:5, Matt. 11:27, John 17:9-10, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48, Rom. 9:10-13, Rom. 9:21-24, Eph. 1:3-4)

2. The Christ of Arminianism - offers salvation to every sinner and does all in his power to bring them to salvation. His offer and work are often frustrated, for many refuse to come.

The Christ of the Bible - effectually calls to Himself only the elect and sovereignly brings them to salvation. Not one of them will be lost. (Isa. 55:11, John 5:21, John 6:37-40, John 10:25-30, John 17:2, Phil. 2:13)

3. The Christ of Arminianism - can not regenerate and save a sinner who does not first choose Christ with his own "free will." All men have a "free will" by which they can either accept or reject Christ. That "free will" may not be violated by Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - sovereignly regenerates the elect sinner apart from his choice, for without regeneration the spiritually dead sinner can not choose Christ. Faith is not man's contribution to salvation but the gift of Christ which He sovereignly imparts in regeneration. (John 3:3, John 6:44 & 65, John 15:16, Acts 11:18, Rom. 9:16, Eph. 2:1,Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 1:29, Hebr. 12:2)

4. The Christ of Arminianism - died on the cross for every individual person and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. His death, apart from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for whom he died are lost.

The Christ of the Bible - died for only God's elect people and thereby actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His chosen people. (Luke 19:10, John 10:14-15 & 26, Acts 20:28, Rom. 5:10, Eph. 5:25, Hebr. 9:12, I Peter 3:18)

5. The Christ of Arminianism - loses many whom he has "saved" because they do not continue in faith. Even if he does give them "eternal security," as some say, that security is not based upon his will or work but the choice which the sinner made when he accepted Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - preserves His chosen people so that they can not lose their salvation but persevere in the faith to the very end. He preserves them by the sovereign electing will of God, the power of His death, and the mighty working of His Spirit. (John 5:24, John 10:26-29, Rom. 8:29-30, Rom. 8:35-39, I Peter 1:2-5, Jude 24-25)

As you can see, although the Christ of Arminianism and the Christ of the Bible may at first seem to be the same, they are very different. One is a false Christ. The other is the true Christ. One is weak and helpless. He bows before the sovereign "free will" of man. The other is the reigning Lord Who wills what He pleases and sovereignly accomplishes all that He wills.
[personal attalcks on salvation not tolerated]

There is ONLY ONE Christ that can save and HE is JESUS the SON of the living GOD.

The Arminians (most, if not all) do not know HIM as their saviour, because they try to help HIM save them by doing somthing to earn thier salvation, but the bible says that we are saved by GRACE and NOT by our own good works (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5).

And these are the ones that will be fearfully surprised on the great day of judgment when they hear GOD say "depart from me" (Matt. 7). There is ONLY ONE GOSPLE, and it is NOT the Arminian gosple, it is that which is found in the BILBE, instead of men's vain ideas.

I am so glad that I am saved by GRACE....
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
This is very instructive. DHK is himself a Calvinist but is willing to call B57 to account for his wild extremist posts on this thread.
Bob
Is this a bit of slander Bob.
I have repeatedly said throughout these threads that I am not a Calvinist. Now you come along and post that I am. Why this misrepresentation of me all of a sudden? If I have said such a thing please quote me, otherwise don't make things up.
I refuse to be put in a box. I am not a Calvinist. I am not an Arminian. I subscribe to no man's theology. I study the Bible on my own. I have studied Calvin's Institutes and have found them wanting. Don't try to put me in a box Bob. You will fail, and end up with slander, as you just did.
 

JFox1

New Member
Here we go again. Everyone is going to hell unless they are Calvinists. I'm not a Calvinist, so I guess I'm going to have a very hot time in the afterlife. :rolleyes:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
AAA said:
There is ONLY ONE Christ that can save and HE is JESUS the SON of the living GOD.

Well at least one thing posted is true from this poster.

The Arminians (most, if not all) do not know HIM as their saviour

Less smoke - more fire please.

Consider for a moment the Calvinist Future Scenario -

In the old version of Baptist Board you could see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –

The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverence.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1586/19.html#000275




The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry
"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not.
(For it IS all about the saved/elect in the end)



We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.


<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.



Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!


JohnP
I see no reason to rejoice over the death of anyone but I glory to God it wasn't me.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1576/15.html#000217
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
JFox1 said:
Here we go again. Everyone is going to hell unless they are Calvinists. I'm not a Calvinist, so I guess I'm going to have a very hot time in the afterlife. :rolleyes:

GE:

Carefully read what Arminians say of Calvinists. (Unlike DHK I boast in being a Calvinist.)

Have Calvinists said the same of Arminians?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
If this is your way of asking for the ARMINIAN future Scenario where the glaringly obvious scenario confronts Arminians of a child or loved one being lost -- that TOO can be posted for a "comparison".
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE:

Carefully read what Arminians say of Calvinists. (Unlike DHK I boast in being a Calvinist.)

Have Calvinists said the same of Arminians?
Well, yes...
The Arminians (most, if not all) do not know HIM as their saviour
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Indeed no more harsh diatribe against Arminians can be imagined than the one occupying the first two pages of this thread.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Arminius
02-10-2007 03:07 PM
Our Sabbatarian has coime over here to jump in the fray without a context! Brilliant. That is how you do "exegesis" on the Sunday issue also. But I beg your pardon, it was Lev 1:3, not 1:2.

1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male
without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the
door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.


GE:

Now read this man's OWN wisdom. The 'freewill' of those under the Law, he equates with the "freedom Christ has made you free with"!

I cannot help to at such a point think of the intellectual and spiritual giants of 'Calvinism', and how they would reduce you to dust in a moment.

But further look at this man's 'freewill' -- how the Word of God determines its every direction and option.
It is an offering (or rather, sacrifice) of the 'comer thereunto's', own 'will';
yet it is commanded of him;
and it is stipulated, not this or that of his own liking, but it should - yea, must - "be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD."

And then, it is ALLOWED this 'freewill' creature: "LET him ...."

In every respect even the 'offering' of 'freewill' is restricted by God through the LAW .... and the Arminians worship it for they KNOW NOT that it is the LAW they worship!

But now, watch this!

"That's the end of Calvinism. And this was said about people not born again. They are "dead in sins", yet they still have THEIR OWN voluntary will, and the Lord went out of his way to make sure people offered this sacrifice of their own voluntary will. The type here is impossible not to see. ANYONE can come to the Lord and he comes not under compulsion of any man, nor of the Lord, he simply answers the call of God of his own voluntary will. Arminianism in a nutshell."

Comment superfluous!

Nevertheless, just pay attention to

".... this was said about people not born again. They are "dead in sins", yet they still have THEIR OWN voluntary will"

Besides the playing God and Judge herein to namely decide, those "people (were) not born again", mark the claim, those ""dead in sins" .... still have THEIR OWN voluntary will", with the clear presumption that by the exercise of it, they are the only deciders and accomplishers of their eternal destiny, which in fact would be true if they were not 'born again' but would be qualified damned - qualified by the bondage unto death of their own will!

But 'Arminius', seeing you are such a legalist, how can you escape from the damnation of the Law with respect to the Sabbath Commandment? And being such a humanist, it should be unavoidable you would worship its antichrist-opposite, Sunday.






 
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