The Church is NOT EQUAL to Israel!

IS THE CHURCH ISREAL? I say NO!

I am sure this has been discussed, but I have been away for quite a while. Came up on the "SUCCESSIVE REVELATION" thread (as well as a few others recently), so I thought, let's start a new one...


Rom 11:25-27 clearly says that God is not done with Israel!

Here is a little exercise... Swap the word "church" for "Israel" in the following passages and see how much sense it makes.

Rom 11:25-27
5 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 9:1-5
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Israel is not the Church and the Church is not Israel... Not all Israel is Israel, in that some Jews are not believers in the God of Israel, BUT IN NO PASSAGE ARE GENTILE BELIEVERS EVER CALLED THE SONS OF ISRAEL!

 

Two things,

First, the Gal 6 passage does not call the church Israel, in fact just the opposite! Notice it says, "peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God". I understand that some argue that the kai could be translated as even, but that is imposing one's theology on the text. At best, an unbiased handling of the text would have to admit that this one does not prove either side...

Second, notice how you have to shift back to "the sons of Abraham". I repeat what I said earlier, in slightly different words, not all Jews are the faith children of Abraham, not all Israelites will inherit the promise, but nowhere (in Scripture) are Gentile believers ever said to the be the children of ISRAEL!

The fact that we are the spiritual seed of Abraham on the basis of faith does not abrogate God's many clear and specific promises to the Jews through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel.

The OT clearly envisions a day when NATIONAL ISRAEL shall recognize that they crucified their Messiah, the result will be DELIVERANCE, not destruction as in AD 70 (Zech 12:10- chap 14). This harmonizes perfectly with Rom 9-11.

Does the following make any sense?

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are THE CHURCH; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

How about this,
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to THE CHURCH, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all THE CHURCH shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [THE CHURCH]:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they [THE CHURCH] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.


Covenant theology badly distorts the clear statements of the OT!

That is the problem with how some interpret the OT on the basis of the NT and not the other way around. It is often done in a way that totally destroys the clear and precise statements of the OT promises to NATIONAL Israel.

Yeah, I guess I am passionate about rightly dividing the Word of God. I just cannot do it in a way that does such violence to God's promises to His elect. Israel was chosen not because they were great in number, etc, etc, but because God wanted to make His grace known through them, in spite of all their weaknesses and failures.

Deut 30 previews God's scattering of them among the nations, envisions their regathering (in parallel with the Olivet Discourse), and foretells the New Covenant with Israel.

Hate to hit and run, but I have got to go to meeting! Back later this evening.

 

Here are all 77 passages where the word "Israel*" occurs in the NT.

Mt 2:20,21; 8:10; 9:33; 10:6,23; 15:24,31; 19:28; 27:9,42; Mr 12:29; 15:32; Lu 1:16,54,68,80; 2:25,32,34; 4:25,27; 7:9; 22:30; 24:21; Joh 1:31,47,49; 3:10; 12:13; Ac 1:6; 2:22,36; 3:12; 4:8,10,27; 5:21,31,35; 7:23,37,42; 9:15; 10:36; 13:16,17,23,24; 21:28; 28:20; Ro 9:4,6,27,31; 10:1,19,21; 11:1,2,7,25,26; 1Co 10:18; 2Co 3:7,13; 11:22; Ga 6:16; Eph 2:12; Php 3:5; Heb 8:8,10; 11:22; Re 2:14; 7:4; 21:12

In NONE of these passages is there any indication that a Gentile believer is ever considered an Israelite in either an ethnic or even a spiritual sense. Israel always means the people or the land. Those Jews who are not believers are not "true Israel" in a spiritual sense and therefore will not partake of all the blessings of the covenants (the Biblical ones, not the superimposed ones). BUT NEVER ARE GENTILE BELIEVERS REFERRED TO AS "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL"!!!

This concept is not found in pages on God’s Word, nor is it sound hermeneutics to take Genesis 1-9 in a literal manner and then spiritualize/allegorize Genesis 12,15,17, etc! I find it unfathomable that those who are most zealous for the election of the saints, deny that same security for an elect national Israel! It just does not add up.

It is the incomplete reformation! Reject centuries of Roman Catholic teaching in regard to justification, but swallow it hook, line, and sinker in regard to Israel, the Church, and the future. Many of us would die rather than deny the literal meaning of the first book of Scripture and then we readily participate in a denial of the perspicuity of the last one. HOW CAN THESE THINGS BE???

RJP

 

We have not only seen the curses fulfilled to ethnic Israel we are seeing the dry bones assemble, flesh and sinew appear, the bodies are standing!!! The only thing left is for the Spirit of God to infuse life!

The greatest testimony to the Truth of the Abraham, Land, and Davidic Covenant is the existence of Israel as a nation!

And my biggest plea to believers is this, "If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense."

 

JM calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist", little D. His opening message for last years Shepherd's Conference was VERY STRONG! I am not on the same page as him on the lordship salvation issue, but he has been a very big influence in my growth and development is most other areas.

 

Not sure I understand all that underlies your statement? But, nowhere are believing Gentiles ever called "true Israel". The "True Israel" would only include believing Jews, never Gentiles. Not in the NT and certainly not in the OT, proselytes not included since they became Jews.

In the OT, elect refers to national ethnic Israel. After the cross, and through the age of the Gentiles/Church Age, the term elect refers to believers without distinction as to ethnicity.