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The Church Is Not Israel

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rant, Nov 30, 2017.

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  1. Rant

    Rant Member

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    We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

    Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.

    Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

    The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

    In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

    If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

    Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

    Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

    It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.
     
  2. Rant

    Rant Member

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    The church that started at Pentecost is not symbolically or spiritually called Israel, according to the Scriptures. Neither has the church replaced Israel so that it will receive the promises that God gave to Israel. There are some verses that could be twisted, by those lacking spiritual discernment or liberals, making it look like the name Israel means the church. Israel is never replaced by the church! Some “Christians”, like those at “Christ at the Checkpoint” conferences, falsely believe that the church has taken the place of Israel so that God can use them to solve the Israeli and Palestinian conflict! They take Scriptures out of context to prove their point and throw Old Testament prophesies in the fire, like Jehoiakim, king of Judah did, Jeremiah 36.

    Romans 9:6-8 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
    Here, Paul may be addressing those who thought they were entitled to the Promised Land, no matter what they believed. This is not addressing the church as Israel. God did not count those Jews who rejected Him as the true Israel. To be entitled to the Promised Land as a Jew in the Messiah’s Kingdom, the individual Jew has to believe on Jesus, just as Abraham and Isaac did. Even though they did not know Jesus by name at that time, they trusted that God would send a Saviour, as He promised! The true Israelite must be born in the flesh, and in their spirit, by the Spirit of God. True Israel is only the saved Jewish remnant!

    Romans 11:2-5 “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
    God is all knowing. He will not force Jews to be saved, but He did know that there would be a remnant who would freely accept Him as their Saviour. These are real Jews, not the church replacing Israel! Elias (Elijah) had a pity party, and God told Him that there were still other Jews serving Him. The people who Elijah was told about were Jews according to the flesh, just like those being saved in Paul’s time. Paul said that even during his time there was still a remnant of Israel who was being saved. This Scripture is evidence that God will continue to have a remnant of Jews to receive the promises made to Abraham!

    Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
    The big-brained liberals who teaches Replacement Theology says that Romans 11 is talking about the church when it says Israel. So, am I to believe Israel, “the church” had to be blinded so that the Gentiles could be saved? That would not make any sense to a school boy. No! Israel is Israel and the church is the church! When God completes His goal to win many Gentiles, He will open the eyes of the Jews once again. Many liberal “Christians” allow their brains to puff up with pride. They think that they have replaced Israel. But, God is not through with Israel.He still needs to add to the Jewish remnant, who will see the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham.

    Galatians 6:16 “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
    This simply means that God owns Israel, and they certainly do need peace and mercy. God formed Israel in the beginning, and He has molded and refined Israel ever since.

    If you read the book of Acts, you will find that both the words Israel and church appear many times. They are never interchangeable. They are two separate things. The church will never replace Israel and receive the Promised Land as an inheritance. The church is not promised by God to even share the Promised Land with the Jews. The church is not Israel, and they have no guarantee to inherit the land that God promised Israel. But, God uses the church to glean the Jewish remnant from the fields of the world. In the future, the church will come with Jesus when He carries out God’s final solution for the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. Meanwhile, the church can help God with the future final solution by winning Jews to Jesus, praying for them, supporting them financially, and by standing up for them instead of against them!
     
  3. Rant

    Rant Member

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    “But now, thus says the Lord who created you, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; you are Mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, nor shall the flame scorch you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour, Since you were precious in My sight, you have been honoured, and I have loved you; therefore I will give men for you, and people for your life. Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, Give them up! And to the south, Do not keep them back! Bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the ends of the earth – everyone who is called by My name, whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him” (Is. 43:1-7).
     
  4. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Your screen name is fitting.
     
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Ah, it reminds me of my younger days when I ranted about everything (I have the lumps to prove it). When I see threads like this I usually just pass by, but I saw you commented. Blessings, brother.
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    God made specific promises to the israelis, while he made other promises to the Church. Now, while any Israeli or anyone else may become part of the Church, one must be BORN an Israeli to be an Israeli.

    "Replacement theology" is phony as a Chevy Mustang.
     
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Romans 2:28, "For he is not a Jew (Israel) who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that of the flesh
     
  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for starting this thread - I was looking to start a thread on this subject.
     
  9. Rant

    Rant Member

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    People can get very Excited about this. lets take the Catholics>> they say they are Christian>the world says they are Christian but they are NOT!!>> they are Replacement theology people! and so are Jws>> Mormons and so on A lot of main stream churches in America just as bad as the rest!>> But they are taught this way form the father of lies!!Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  10. Rant

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    And as we see by some threads this lie works over and over again!
     
  11. Rant

    Rant Member

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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Catholic is to Christian, what Person is to Human.


    I've heard plenty of religions say Catholics are in league with the devil, But Catholics don't say that about other religions. We sincerely believe you are doing your best with what is given. We don't see it as US vs THEM, the worst case is we have mistaken brother in need of guidance.

    Matthew 10

    24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

    Sounds like I would have been in the wrong place if no one accused us of being in league with the devil.

    So God bless you, and thanks, even.
     
  13. Rant

    Rant Member

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    Catholic is to Christian>> NO<< Mystery Babylon Yes Enjoy
     
  14. Rant

    Rant Member

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    Have You Read That The Pope would baptize an Alien >> and that's not from a diff country!
     
  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, Rant. Noting the typos, my name is IAN & I am awake to this topic. We all look for salvation of Jews, of Israelites wherever they are in the world. All persecution is repugnant to God & true Christians.

    Let's look at the question guided by Scripture.

    The first promise to Abram counted in all families on earth. Gen. 12, This was clarified by further promises to the Patriarchs to be through his seed - singular as shown by Paul. Gal. 3.

    Both Joshua & Solomon considered the land promises to be fulfilled in their day.

    The prophets show that the seed promises - Messianic promises - were to be fulfilled by a son of King David's descendants. Isaiah 11, Jer. 23 & many others.

    They also show he will be rejected, suffer, die & rise again. Psalms quoted in Acts 2 & 13.

    The prophets, particularly those who wrote before the exile, prophesy a glorious future for my people Israel in the promised land. These prophecies are not specifically quoted by Jesus & the Apostles, apart from Romans 11 which says and so all Israel shall be saved. But who comprise "all Israel"?

    Faith in Messiah results in justification:
    Acts 13:38 ‘Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

    Many thousands of Israelites from all over the Roman world were saved from the day of Pentecost onwards, including priests (Acts 6) & Pharisees. (Paul & Acts 15) These formed the Church. Acts 2. These kept the New Covenant breaking of bread.

    Jesus taught that true worship would be in spirit & in truth wherever, not centred in Jerusalem. John 4. He further taught the destruction of the temple but not a rebuilding.

    The Apostles taught that Jesus was building a spiritual temple for worship made with living stones. Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2.

    The Apostles travelled around the world, preaching in synagogues where there were Jewish communities. Many were saved, though often the Jews were divided & a local church, comprising Jews, proselytes & Gentiles was formed.

    The Jewish leaders in Jerusalem continued to reject the Gospel, & before this generation died out, Jerusalem & the temple were utterly destroyed.

    So, in the lifetime of the Apostles, large numbers of Israelites believed their Messiah & formed the church. These reluctantly at first accepted Gentiles as fellow believers without circumcision. The church comprised believing Jews & Gentiles as one people of God - the household of faith. Gal. 3 & 6.

    Marriage in the Lord was approved, honourable in all & there is no reason to suppose intermarriage of believers was forbidden. And while the practice of circumcision continued for a time, the teaching of John (baptist) & Jesus showed it had no religious merit. Mat. 3, John 8.

    Thus Christian Jews/Israelites would become one with Christian Gentiles in the Church. The official rejection of the Messiah, Jesus, in no way invalidated the Old Covenant prophets.

    And Hebrews teaches that even Abraham wouldn't be satisfied with a land on earth.
    Heb. 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    Conclusion - the true Church comprises believers of all nationalities & ethnicity. People of Israel & Jews around the world are welcome.
    Certainly the country calling itself Israel is NOT the Church of the redeemed people of God. Neither are of lot of so-called churches.

    And, of course, ALL prophecy will be perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven & New Earth.
     
    #15 Covenanter, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well I don't mind being cloaked as the master of all that is evil.

    You can even call me the Devil.

    I'll take that title. In fact I've taken up the practice that when things are wrong I should check if its my fault first.

    Now you can hand all MY evil tools like, lies, deceptions, accusation to me. Those tools belong to me. Lets see how you can do without the Accuser.

    Should be a piece of cake considering your better then me in every way.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That ain't nothing, we would baptize dogs if they sin I think :D

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Rant

    Rant Member

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    OK> I get it>>> Enjoy
     
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