The Commandments

[Joe]

Hi Joe,
YES! I absolutely obey the fourth commandment. No, I'm not a seventh day adventist; I believe the lake of fire is eternal, and I don't believe any meat is unclean.

Ditto to most Except if Lev. tells us certain foods are unclean, then I am curious how you justify these as clean according to your standards. Isn't this intentional sin? You described intentional and unintential sin to Amy. I am editing this post as we type so I must hurry to go back to your words to Amy to understand.
I am wondering how this is not sinning according to your standards. I have no problem not following the Lev. diet but I feel it is a healthy one so I choose to try to follow it.
Oh, and I really like the tone of your posts, thanks

HOWEVER, I did used to mow my lawn on Saturdays thinking it was okay, because "labor" is for earning wages. OOOPS, I got corrected. Let's read about the
sabbath day...

By your standards, I believe you have broken the 4th commandment by working on the Sabbath Day. Yet you say you don't break any of the commandments since you have repented. Whether it is intentional or unintentional, it is still sin right? I'll again check your post to Amy

Again, I don't believe I am under the law either, except in following the ten commandments. I will be studying the scripture you provided yet stick with the idea I will not be able to follow the ten commandments completely. I am a sinner. Yet I will try

We can safely assume that the apostles of Jesus Christ kept the sabbath day as commanded by God.

Agreed!

Jesus Himself said that to "ENTER" into eternal life you MUST obey the commandments. Was this only for this one man? Was this only for those under the Old Testament? Not according to Scripture...

Yes, but Jesus said this before he sacrificed himself on the cross as payment for our sins. So at that time, it was true. I don't believe it was directed at the OT only, we all must obey the commandments.

I better go eat dinner now. My stomach is grumbling.


Blessings to to you Bro


Joe

 

[BobRyan]

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Once again, our "WHOLE" duty is to fear God, and OBEY His commandments. This is God's will. From the beginning this has been God's will, and it will be God's will forever, and ever.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Being called the least in the kingdom of heaven IS NOT a good thing.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

Well said sir!

Nice going!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus Himself said that to "ENTER" into eternal life you MUST obey the commandments. Was this only for this one man? Was this only for those under the Old Testament? Not according to Scripture...

Joe
Yes, but Jesus said this before he sacrificed himself on the cross as payment for our sins. So at that time, it was true. I don't believe it was directed at the OT only, we all must obey the commandments.

This solution fails the test of Gal 1:6-11 saying that EVEN in the OT there is only ONE SOLUTION only ONE gospel. In Gal 3 the "GOSPEL" is preached even to Abraham.

In Heb 4 "The GOSPEL" was preached to US JUST as it was to them ALSO.

The Gospel has ALWAYS been a message of "saved by grace through faith not of works" -- that is the ONE and ONLY Gospel in ALL of time!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:31 "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith! God forbid! Rather we ESTABLISH the Law of God!"

 

[Iamodd4God]

Ditto to most Except if Lev. tells us certain foods are unclean, then I am curious how you justify these as clean according to your standards. Isn't this intentional sin? You described intentional and unintential sin to Amy. I am editing this post as we type so I must hurry to go back to your words to Amy to understand.
I am wondering how this is not sinning according to your standards. I have no problem not following the Lev. diet but I feel it is a healthy one so I choose to try to follow it.
Oh, and I really like the tone of your posts, thanks

Hi Joe, I try not to come across too harshly. Sometimes a stern word is needed, but not all the time.

Okay, here is why I don't follow the Levitical practice in regards to unclean meats...

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Acts 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Acts 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Acts 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Here in a vision God shows the apostle Peter "ALL MANNER" of four footed animals, creeping things (insects), and fowls of the air. "ALL MANNER" would include those that were called "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament. And God tells him to rise and eat. Why would God tell Peter to do something that is sin? He didn't, notice what the apostle Peter said: "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean." It is obvious that there were unclean animals on this sheet. But notice what the Lord said? He said: "What God hath CLEANSED, call not thou common." Therefore, God Himself said that the unclean animals are now clean.

Okay, some argue this was a vision to show the apostle Peter that the Gentiles are now clean. That is true, but it doesn't change what God used in the vision or what God said about the unclean animals being made clean. So pork it up; what was unclean was made clean by God.

By your standards, I believe you have broken the 4th commandment by working on the Sabbath Day. Yet you say you don't break any of the commandments since you have repented. Whether it is intentional or unintentional, it is still sin right? I'll again check your post to Amy

You hit the nail on the head; sin is sin whether it is intentionally committed or unintentionally committed. I don't work on the sabbath day. I used to mow the lawn on the sabbath, because to me I viewed "no working" as meaning not earning wages, and to me mowing is relaxing; I enjoy it. I intentionally mowed the lawn on the sabbath day, but not with the intentions of sinning against God; to me what I was doing wasn't wrong, but then I actually read what the 4th commandment says, and it says that nobody is to work "WITHIN" your gates. This would be talking about household chores, which would include mowing.

See, it doesn't matter how I view mowing the lawn, what matters is how God views mowing the lawn. I can say there is nothing wrong with it, but that doesn't mean it would be true. So as a precaution, I don't mow on Saturdays; I'd rather not mow on Saturdays, and go to heaven, rather than mow on Saturdays and burn in the lake of fire.

Again, I don't believe I am under the law either, except in following the ten commandments. I will be studying the scripture you provided yet stick with the idea I will not be able to follow the ten commandments completely. I am a sinner. Yet I will try

Joe here is the problem I have with what you said. by saying that you you believe you are not under the law, "EXCEPT IN FOLLOWING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" this tells me that you agree that God expects us to follow His commandments. Yes or no? If yes, then here is a huge problem: you said, "yet stick with the IDEA I will not be able to follow the ten commandments completely." Why would God expect you to follow the commandments if following His commandments cannot be done? So is the idea that the commandments cannot be followed a Biblical idea or a man made idea?

The issue isn't whether you "CAN" or "CAN'T" obey the commandments. The issue is "WILL" you or "WON'T" you obey the commandments. If I kill, it won't be because I "CAN'T" obey the 6th commandment, it will be because I won't obey the 6th commandment. This same principle applies to "ALL" ten commandments.

Yes, but Jesus said this before he sacrificed himself on the cross as payment for our sins. So at that time, it was true. I don't believe it was directed at the OT only, we all must obey the commandments.

This is in regards to Matthew 19:16-17 where Jesus tells the rich man if he wants to enter into eternal life he must obey the commandments. Isn't what Jesus said to the rich man confirmed in Revelation?

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus told the rich man if he wanted to "ENTER" into eternal life, he must obey the commandments, in Revelation 22:14 we are told that those who obey the commandments shall have right to the tree of life. Will those who do not obey have the right to the tree of life?

Blessings to to you Bro


Joe

I say this in a godly love. May your eyes be opened to see the truth so that you can escape the error of those who have taught you. Remember, it is the Word of God that says the "WHOLE" duty of man is to obey the commandments; it is the word of man that says obedience cannot be done. It is God who wants you to repent, and come to heaven, it is the devil that wants you to sin and share his fate. It is your choice to either disobey God or to obey God. The devil can't force you to choose his will, and God won't force you to choose His will; it is entirely up to you.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have reaed through all the posts here. Especially paying attention to what the OP and author is seeking to do. It reminded me of a few things.

One, is legalism. Not in exhortations to keep God's commandments, but I detect in here that legalism that works must be done to merit justification before God. Even though the author seems to indicate this is not his intention, the conclusion is the same. If I, a professing Christian, am not keeping the whole Law (let's say moral, because apparantly the author abolishes the ceremonial, and rightly so) then either 1. I have lost my salvation. or 2. Was not saved to begin with.

I see that this posted disagrees/hates the OSAS, which I prefer to call the perseverance of the saints. In his attack on the doctine he uses a hypothetical situation. Let's use murder. One professing Christian murders another and dies, and an unbelievers murders another and dies. Some say the Christian goes to heaven on the basis of OSAS. While this may be the idea in the heads of some moderns, the historic Christian doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches no such thing. The grace of our God is not a liscence to sin, and those who turn the grace of God into liscivousness fall under Jude's condemnation in Jude 1:2-3.

We teach that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live righteously and holy in the present age. See Titus.

We DENY that man is justified according to the works of the Law or even the Law of his own conscience. We AFFIRM that Christ kept the Law perfectly in thought, word and deed, on behalf of those for whom He died that they, APART from the Law, may be justified before God by having Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to them on the basis of faith alone.

We also affirm that God has effected the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ and has abolished the Old. We DENY that this means the moral nature of the Mosaic Law is abolished. This Law is not abolished, but rather fulfilled in Christ and fulfilled in US who BELIEVE.

Lest this be misunderstood: The rightousness of the Law of God is FULFILLED in us who believe. The moral Law of God is forever binding upon the believer including justified persons.

True believers are not under the law of works to be either justified or condemned thereby. The threats and terros of Sinai have NO DOMINION over you, ye elect of God. For you have not come to Sinai, but to Mt. Zion. Hallaujah.

The Law of God is of great use to the elect of God IF USED PROPERLY. I do not believe the OP author is doing this. The Law of God is a usuful rule of life. It teaches us the will of God and our duty, it discovers sinful attutudes and thoughts of the heart, and may through it see our great need of Christ. It is a useful tutor to the unbeliever to bring them to Christ and great use in the training of our children to this same purpose. The Law of God displays His perfection, holiness, judgments, wrath, et. And is therefore a great means by which we may know God and glorify His Name.

This Law of God is not abolished under the New Covenant, but rather established. This Law is written upon our hearts and our great God causes us to obey it. As my confession of faith states, "the law [is not] contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done."

I see in the OP the danger of perfectionism. Thinking that every Christian should now by grace be able to keep the Law of perfectly. This is not only contray to experience, even the author's, but also to Scripture. Speaking to justified and elect persons, the Apostle John writes, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Christians, take great comfort in these things. God has spoken to us that we may not sin, but if we do (and we do), know that you have an Advocate with the Father. Yes, the Law of God thunders showing you your sin, and pronouncing God's righteous wrath and indignation against you, the lawbreaker.

And if God should pour out his wrath upon you in its fulllest, you would cry out from hell, "Righteous and true are thy judgments O God."

But Sinai is dead to you. You have died and been married to another, even Jesus Christ whose blood speaks better thing than that of Abel. His blood cries out for the forgiveness of your sins and His righteousness is imputed to you by faith. If you sin Christian, run to your Saviour and confess your sins. And the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

But if you confess that you are a Christian, and the practice of your life is continually wicked, then greatly question whether you be in Christ at all. He who practices sin is of the devil, so is he who does not love his brother. But he who loves and practices righteousness is born of God.

Remember, Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, not the Saviour who leaves you in your sins! And if you are still in your sins, then turn to Jesus Christ and call upon His Name. Seek the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS until you are endued with power from on High, and He implants His Word in your heart, raises you to the newness of life from your death in sins and trespasses. Then go, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your servant in Christ,
RB

 

[Iamodd4God]

This is in response to the post made by reformedbaptist.

So that there is no confusion let me say this:

A person is NOT saved by works. A person can begin to obey the commandments today, and burn in hell tomorrow, because obedience to the commandments is NOT what saves you. What saves you is your faith on Jesus Christ who shed His blood for the remission of sins. This was done out of God's grace, NOT out of our works.

That said, let's discuss the life "AFTER" becoming saved. After I am saved reformedbaptist, can I disobey the commandments? I know you will say no, because I know Baptist do not teach that it is okay to sin, so let me skip to the next question. If I disobey the commandments will I go to heaven? If you answer this, I don't mind if you give reasoning, but please begin with a simple yes or no first so I don't have to try to decode your post to figure out your answer.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Joe]

Hi Ken

I am convinced that the unclean meats are now considered clean through Jesus. He wouldn't order anyone to eat anything unclean. Thank you very much for the time you took in proving it to me with the verses. Yum yum, crab with melted butter :thumbs: we'll see...

Know that throughout my post, I am referring to a saved person. Someone who has repented.

So as a precaution, I don't mow on Saturdays; I'd rather not mow on
Saturdays, and go to heaven, rather than mow on Saturdays and burn in the lake of fire.

So if you had died right after mowing your lawn that time, would your destination be hell?
Maybe this is a stupid question, but if that is all it takes to get to hell is this kind of sin, something unintentional, then why when the urge to sin comes upon us, would one not be attracted to a more satisfying sin like adultery (just as an example) since the penalty is the same? If you are saying this, but maybe i misread your post. I am NOT advocating any of these horrific sins.

Joe here is the problem I have with what you said. by saying that you you believe you are not under the law, "EXCEPT IN FOLLOWING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" this tells me that you agree that God expects us to follow His commandments. Yes or no?

Yes absolutely.

If yes, then here is a huge problem: you said, "yet stick with the IDEA I will not be able to follow the ten commandments completely." Why would God expect you to follow the commandments if following His commandments cannot be done?

God expects us to follow them, but also gives us Christ Jesus to cover our sins when we don't follow them perfectly. Sort of to fill in where we fail.

Romans 7:14 Says For we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, I will not practice, but what I hate,I do.
Romans 8 :2 For the Law of the Spirit in life of Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For What the Law could not do in that it was weak though the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.


You admitted to breaking a commandment (I thought) by mowing your lawn yet you say we can keep all of the commandments. This is what I really want to know. How do you know you won't forget or accidentlly break another commandment?
Maybe you feel Jesus died for unintentional sins only?

The issue isn't whether you "CAN" or "CAN'T" obey the commandments. The issue is "WILL" you or "WON'T" you obey the commandments. If I kill, it won't be because I "CAN'T" obey the 6th commandment, it will be because I won't obey the 6th commandment. This same principle applies to "ALL" ten commandments.

No, because if someone breaks into my house and comes after my wife, I might accidently kill them in the process of defending her. Or I might blow up and deliberately kill the guy. Either way, my motives were pure so I believe God would forgive me if I sinned. But that is not a license to sin. Just one example...

This is in regards to Matthew 19:16-17 where Jesus tells the rich man if he wants to enter into eternal life he must obey the commandments. Isn't what Jesus said to the rich man confirmed in Revelation?

True, but again we have Jesus to help us out there. See above.

Jesus told the rich man if he wanted to "ENTER" into eternal life, he must obey the commandments, in Revelation 22:14 we are told that those who obey the commandments shall have right to the tree of life.

True

Will those who do not obey have the right to the tree of life?

Yes, as we all can't keep the commandments all of the time. You couldn't, you mowed your lawn on the Sabbath remember !


By chance, did you start your own church? I noticed you said you were formerly a Baptist but don't believe in a few of their doctrines so you got out. I wonder how you found a church which holds these beliefs. Just curious since they are unique.


Happy Sabbath !

Joe

P.S. I am slow so if anyone posted saying the same thing as I, then please don't think I am copying them

 

[Iamodd4God]

But if you confess that you are a Christian, and the practice of your life is continually wicked, then greatly question whether you be in Christ at all. He who practices sin is of the devil, so is he who does not love his brother. But he who loves and practices righteousness is born of God.

He who "practices" sin is of the devil? What the Bible says is...

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Let's look at that word "committeth".

The word committeth used in 1John 3:8 is translated from the Greek word poieō (poy-eh'-o) which means to make or to do. Some Bible versions has taken the word committeth and changed it to practices. By doing so people can easily argue how we will commit ocassional sin, but it is the habitual sinning that shows who the children of the devil are.

Let's look at this with logic. If you knew a person who robbed bank you wouldn't say: "Well, he robbed a bank, but he might not be a bank robber." No, you wouldn't have to wait for a person to habitually rob banks to determine whether he is a bank robber or not. Of course it would be hard to believe that a person could rob a bank NOT knowing what they are doing is wrong.

Now let's apply this logic to a person you KNOW professes to be a Christian. You see this person in a store reading a horoscope. Certainly you can't say "Oh my Jenny is a child of the devil!" Because Jenny may be doing this without knowing that what she is doing is a sin. So you talk to Jenny, and show her error with Scripture, and now she KNOWS reading the horoscopes is sin. She now has a choice to make; either to not read the horoscopes or to continue reading the horoscopes.

The next time you see her, sure enough you see she is reading the horoscopes again. Now, would you have to wait until she does it again to determine whether she is a child of God or not? No, now you KNOWthat she KNOWS what the Scriptures says, and here she is blatantly disobeying the Word of God; that would prove whose child she REALLY is.

Does that mean she LOST her salvation? Well, how can God overlook her sin if she doesn't repent of it? Repent means to STOP sinning, not just feeling sorry and desiring to change. I can feel sorry for doing wrong, and not stop. My feeling sorry wouldn't make the wrong I do right. So would God overlook her sin and say "Well done my "UNFAITHFUL" servant come into my rest." He couldn't say faithful when she was unfaithful.

Does that means she was NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH? How can you know? We do not have the ability to know people's hearts only God does. The only thing we can know is what they are by their fruit they produce.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Hi Ken

I am convinced that the unclean meats are now considered clean through Jesus. He wouldn't order anyone to eat anything unclean. Thank you very much for the time you took in proving it to me with the verses. Yum yum, crab with melted butter :thumbs: we'll see...

Know that throughout my post, I am referring to a saved person. Someone who has repented.

You're welcome. My favorite is Lobster tail and steak. What I find funny is a lady once asked me if I knew that Lobster are bottom feeders? I said yes. She said, don't you know what bottom feeders eat? I said yes. She said "That's gross" I replied "You think so?" She said yes. This was at a cat fish fish fry. I just laughed.

So if you had died right after mowing your lawn that time, would your destination be hell?
Maybe this is a stupid question, but if that is all it takes to get to hell is this kind of sin, something unintentional, then why when the urge to sin comes upon us, would one not be attracted to a more satisfying sin like adultery (just as an example) since the penalty is the same? If you are saying this, but maybe i misread your post. I am NOT advocating any of these horrific sins.

Good question about if I died right after I mowed the lawn if I would go to hell. But my belief is that God not wanting anyone to perish would give me the opportunity to see the truth, and correct myself. I don't think God would allow me to die without having an opportunity to repent of not keeping the sabbath day holy.

As far as when the "urge" to sin comes, I picture temptation. When we are tempted it is going to be for things that are for the flesh. It would be hard for an evil spirit to tempt me to mow the lawn. I mean it isn't like I see the lawn mower and immediately begin to drool in anticipation of mowing the lawn. Yes I like mowing the lawn, but not that much

God expects us to follow them, but also gives us Christ Jesus to cover our sins when we don't follow them perfectly. Sort of to fill in where we fail.

This is where the water gets muddy. A person can easily say you are making Jesus a license to sin. You can say your not, but look at your response. You said God expects us to follow them (His ten commandments), but also gives us Jesus to cover our sins when we don't follow them perfectly.

Again if God expects us to follow His commandments but knows we can't and sent His Son to as you put it to fill in where we fail, then why should I attempt to obey any of the commandments? Can't I just sin when I want, say sorry to God and ask Him to forgive me and move on? Amazingly there are people who say yes to this, but then I have to wonder what the sense of Jesus' death? Because God could have kept the OT ways in tact and overlook sin. Jesus didn't have to shed His blood to enable us to continue to disobey God.

Romans 7:14 Says For we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, I will not practice, but what I hate,I do.
Romans 8 :2 For the Law of the Spirit in life of Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For What the Law could not do in that it was weak though the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

But Joe, the apostle Paul also said...

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When the apostle Paul spoke of his struggles with sin in chapter 7, was it before or after he was saved? If after he was saved, then by doing what he didn't want to do, which was sin; wasn't that him walking after the flesh, and not the Spirit?

To sin you have to walk after the flesh not the Spirit Joe. Therefore, in the state the apostle Paul was in during his struggle with sin, it wasn't while he was "IN" Christ, it was when he was walking after the flesh. So Romans 8:1-4 wouldn't have applied to him.

But if his struggle with sin was before he became saved, then by becoming saved he became free from sin, which would then include him in Romans 8:1-4, because he would have ceased from living according to his flesh, and he would have now been living according to the Spirit.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

PS. A reply to the rest of your post is coming.

 

[Iamodd4God]

You admitted to breaking a commandment (I thought) by mowing your lawn yet you say we can keep all of the commandments. This is what I really want to know. How do you know you won't forget or accidentlly break another commandment? Maybe you feel Jesus died for unintentional sins only?

Joe, if the purpose of Jesus' death was to make it so that we don't go to hell by disobeying God, couldn't have God left the Old Testament in tact? I mean if the purpose of Jesus' blood was to enable us to sin, then what would be the sense of His death? Couldn't God just as easily overlook our sins with the blood of bulls and goats?

No I do not believe Jesus died for unintentional sin only, but I also do not believe He died so that we can intentionally sin either. I mean, I do not believe that I KNOWING what adultery is can go out, commit adultery and simply ask God to forgive me. That would be like going out throwing a brick through your neighbors window, and saying "ooops, sorry about that". Only to later do it again, and then again, and then again.

Me mowing the lawn on the sabbath day was unintentional, not intentional. I didn't know that no work included mowing etc. I thought no work meant no earning wages. Now I do know, and knowing that, I can't go and intentionally mow the lawn on the sabbath day KNOWING that it is against God, and after wards wipe the sweat from brow, quench my thirst with some lemonade as I sit in the shade of a mighty Oak tree, and say "ooops sorry about that God, I'll try not to do it again." only to do it again later.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For me to intentionally mow the lawn on the sabbath day I would have to do a tap dance on Jesus as I trodden Him under my foot, as I deliberately commit sin "KNOWING" the truth. If I do that I only have one thing to look forward to, and I would really not want that.

No, because if someone breaks into my house and comes after my wife, I might accidently kill them in the process of defending her. Or I might blow up and deliberately kill the guy. Either way, my motives were pure so I believe God would forgive me if I sinned. But that is not a license to sin. Just one example...

There are different ways of killing. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is believed, which I agree is in regards to cold blooded murder. Killing in self defense is questionable as Jesus told Peter to put away his sword that whoever takes up the sword would die by the sword (Matthew 26:52). But in the same token Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36). Sooooo, I dunno on that one. But, to deliberately kill someone out of anger? That would be sinning during anger. How would that be pure? We are to pray for those who persecute us, not kill them.

True, but again we have Jesus to help us out there. See above.

Well wait a minute Joe, above you said: "God expects us to follow them, but also gives us Christ Jesus to cover our sins when we don't follow them perfectly. Sort of to fill in where we fail." So is Jesus' help to obey the commandments or to cover up your failures? Your changing Jesus' answer from "OBEY THE COMNMANDMENTS" to "TRY TBEY". Again look at what Jesus said...

Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Notice Joe that our whole duty is not to try to obey the commandments, it is to obey the commandments...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

...it isn't the man who tries to obey the commandments that will have the right to the tree of life, it is the man who obeys the commandments that will have the right to the tree of life...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yes, as we all can't keep the commandments all of the time. You couldn't, you mowed your lawn on the Sabbath remember !

Joe, saying that I couldn't keep the commandments because I mowed the lawn on the sabbath day doesn't prove that it is impossible to obey the commandments. Yes you can unintentionally disobey the commandments, but that doesn't make it excuseable. As I stated above I believe that God will not allow you to die if you are unintentionally disobeying His commandments. I believe that God will give you the opportunity to be obedient, just as He has done with me not keeping the sabbath day holy. And if there are other sins I am doing unintetionally God will bring them to light. Then I will be faced with either repenting and not doing those sins any longer or intentionally continue to sin.

By chance, did you start your own church? I noticed you said you were formerly a Baptist but don't believe in a few of their doctrines so you got out. I wonder how you found a church which holds these beliefs. Just curious since they are unique.

Oh, you won't find a church that believes what the Bible says is true in the yellow pages. Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of God, and "MANY" will enter through the wide gate that leads to destruction. Not surprisingly, many people who profess to be Christian will believe what a preacher says, but not believe what Jesus says. I say not surprising, because of what Jesus said about the "MANY" who says Lord, Lord. People honor Jesus with their lips, but their hearts are from from Him (Matthew 15:7-9).

We were going to a non-denominational church that held our beliefs so we thought, but then an elder told me "I can't see myself going a day without telling a lie." Another elder told me "Well, there is a little wiggle room when it comes to sin." The preacher told me "We are only human, and will sin from time to time." So, we left and decided to worship at home. Can't say we started our own church, because you can't start something that was already started. So far locally I haven't met anybody that believes the Bible the way we do, but I have met a few people online, very few, but they are out there.

Happy Sabbath !

Joe

P.S. I am slow so if anyone posted saying the same thing as I, then please don't think I am copying them

Do you keep the sabbath day? Not "A" sabbath day, but "THE" sabbath day?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Joe]

RB,

This Law of God is not abolished under the New Covenant, but rather established. This Law is written upon our hearts and our great God causes us to obey it. As my confession of faith states, "the law [is not] contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done."

I understand what you are saying yet what about the 4th commandment. We are to obey the 4th Commandment to honor THE Sabbath day, there seems to be no other way to honor this commandment whatsoever except literally. It only asks us to adhere to a specific day, yet there is some leeway upon how to spend the day.

I see in the OP the danger of perfectionism. Thinking that every Christian should now by grace be able to keep the Law of perfectly.

I agree. IMHO, perfectionism causes judgement to be clouded. It causes one to not understand the levels of sin, making them more suseptible to the big ones. Some sins are worse than others such as murder, thieving, adultery etc.. some are accidental or will happen at some point because we are human and sin. We can't obsess to much about breaking a commandment or we miss what is really important. This is not a license to sin. I don't see this happening with Ken (author of post) though. He seems to understand the difference between levels of sin.

Christians, take great comfort in these things. God has spoken to us that we may not sin, but if we do (and we do), know that you have an Advocate with the Father. Yes, the Law of God thunders showing you your sin, and pronouncing God's righteous wrath and indignation against you, the lawbreaker.

Agreed

But if you confess that you are a Christian, and the practice of your life is continually wicked, then greatly question whether you be

Agreed.

Hope you're having a great weekend

Joe

 

[Joe]

Joe, if the purpose of Jesus' death was to make it so that we don't go to hell by disobeying God, couldn't have God left the Old Testament in tact? I mean if the purpose of Jesus' blood was to enable us to sin, then what would be the sense of His death? Couldn't God just as easily overlook our sins with the blood of bulls and goats? Left the old testament in tact?

Oh no keeping the old testament in tact makes me tired. It takes all of my effort just to ensure I am obeying the 10 commandments. And I can't even be sure of this competely, neither can you. Even if you believe you can, oh well.. that's fine. Remember, our standards are likely lower than Gods.

Joe, saying that I couldn't keep the commandments because I mowed the lawn on the sabbath day doesn't prove that it is impossible to obey the commandments. ] Yes you can unintentionally disobey the commandments, but that doesn't make it excuseable. As I stated above I believe that God will not allow you to die if you are unintentionally disobeying His commandments. I believe that God will give you the opportunity to be obedient, just as He has done with me not keeping the sabbath day holy.

Agreed

Do you keep the sabbath day? Not "A" sabbath day, but "THE" sabbath day?

Yes, our family keeps THE 7th day Sabbath. Our church is on Sunday. I can't strive to keep the commandments and then omit one of them. Thanks again Ken

Blessings,

Joe

 

[Joe]

duplicate post

 

[BobRyan]

Ken - regrading Acts 10

1. Peter never actually eats the snakes and rats that God shows him. No rat,cat,bat sandwich for Peter AND Peter affirms "positively" saying EACH time "O NO Lord for I have NEVER eaten anyTHING that is unclean".

2. Peter relates this vision 3 times in acts and never says "and then we all ate rats and snakes the rest of that day" as his way of showing how he accepted the teaching. RATHER Peter says continually that the TEACHING of that vision was that he should "call no MAN unclean" and that the "call no rat" unclean idea was simply symbolic.

Sadly many today dump the "call no man unclean" message that Peter SAYS is the real meaning of the vision and instead argue "Call no rat bat or snake unclean" as if this was really what God was arguing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Joe and Ken - regarding the 10 commandments.

D.L Moody has a pretty good sermon on that subject and deals extensively with the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment.

Christ Himself argues in Mark 2 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" speaking of the making of the Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3.

D.L.Moody admits to this Garden-of-Eden origin for Christ our Creator's Sabbath.

So also do a number of other well known Bible commentaries.

In Isaiah 66 God says that "From Sabbath to Sabbath" ALL mankind will "come before Me to Worship" in the New Heavens and New Earth.

The continuation of that ordinance that starts in Eden seems clear.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, our family keeps THE 7th day Sabbath. Our church is on Sunday. I can't strive to keep the commandments and then omit one of them.

Blessings,

Joe

How about worshipping with the Seventh-day Baptists?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

RB,


I understand what you are saying yet what about the 4th commandment. We are to obey the 4th Commandment to honor THE Sabbath day, there seems to be no other way to honor this commandment whatsoever except literally. It only asks us to adhere to a specific day, yet there is some leeway upon how to spend the day.

Well said sir!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

These commandments established order when it was needed. Moses called out to the Lord, and he responded with some guidelines (commandments) which I believe still apply today.

I am not totally convinced I am correct, and need more study on this issue. Until then, I would rather be safe than sorry.

Here is another link that emphasizes your POV even more so in the words of D.L.Moody

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY​

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/b]. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/b]​

​

​

THERE HAS BEEN an [b]awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

.
HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH​

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/b]

…





[b]Mr. Gladstone recently told a friend that the secret of his long life is that amid all the pressure of public cares he never forgot the Sabbath, with its rest for the body and the soul.
·
When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,
…
Make the Sabbath a day of religious activity. First of all, of course, is attendance at public worship. "There is a discrepancy," says John McNeill, "between our creed about the Sabbath day and our actual conduct. In many families, at ten o'clock on the Sabbath, attendance at church is still an open question. There is no open question on Monday morning- 'John, will you go to work today.'"

…
Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth.
…
Parents, if you want your children to grow up and honor you, have them honor the Sabbath day.

.
SABBATH DESECRATION​

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago.[/b]

​

[/quote]

 

[Joe]

How about worshipping with the Seventh-day Baptists?

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob

I don't believe there are any 7th Day Baptists in our area. I checked at one time. It really isn't too difficult to attend church most Sundays since there are multiple services. We like our church.
Thanks for the link, I will check it out tomorrow after church.
Blessings,

Joe