UnchartedSpirit
New Member
Some student said that a survey was done with all the religious rulers and apparently all of them stated that Heaven had great food, and lotsa young women...what type of CHristianity emphisizes that? Mormonism maybe?
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The common theme of Heaven in religion
- Thread starter UnchartedSpirit
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UnchartedSpirit
New Member
I also heard that all religions say that heaven is a place to meet up with loved ones. Is taht in the scriptures as well?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Jesus was taken up to heaven. Mark 16:19 Lk 24:51 Acts 1:11 1 Peter 3:22
Jesus is now in heaven. Act 7:55 Col 4:1 Heb 8:1 9:24
Jesus is preparing a place for us there. John 14 1Peter 1:4
Therefore:
Our citizenship is in heaven - Phil 3:20
Our hope is in heaven. Col 1:5
We seek a heavenly city Heb 11:16 “They desired a heavenly country”
We will be "brought to His heavenly kingdom" 2Tim 4:18
John 14:3 When he returns he will "receive us unto Himself"
1Thess 4: “we shall be caught up in the air WITH those who have fallen asleep (those who are "The Dead in Christ" our loved ones) - at the last trump and the first resurrection and taken up to heaven (Christ will “receive us to Himself” that WHERE He is there we may be also) as promised.
The OT says Elijah "was taken to heaven"
The Bible speaks of THREE "heavens."
The first is the sky, or the mantle of air which cloaks the earth; the atmosphere. This is the "heaven" in which clouds are formed, and birds and aircraft fly. There are many examples of the usage of the word "heaven" in connection with the air, or the atmosphere.
Birds fly in the open firmament of HEAVEN - Gen. 1:20.
The "second" heaven revealed in the Bible is that of SPACE; of the entire creation outside of the earth's atmosphere.
When David exulted, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork" (Psalms 19:1), he was speaking of the sun, moon, and stars; of our solar system and the universe.
Genesis 22:17 says,
"In blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven....
The THIRD heaven is the place of God's throne! The Apostle Paul was inspired to write specifically of this heaven. He said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
"And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
"How that he was caught up into paradise....(2 Corinthians 12:2-4).
------------------------------------------------
Enoch And Elijah Were Not In Heaven
When Christ said "…no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13), it is obvious He was referring to the "third heaven" from which He had come. Elijah was "taken up" into the "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere, to a safe place, where he lived out his remaining years. Elijah WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, so said your Savior! The letter Elijah sent to Elisha YEARS after he disappeared (2 Chronicles 21:12) proves it!
For centuries, it has been assumed both Enoch and Elijah were "in heaven." Because no distinction was made between the THREE different "heavens" revealed in the Bible, it was supposed these righteous men were caught up to the heaven of God; the "third heaven." Not so. They were transported IN THE AIR from great danger to a place of protection! Notice the truth about Enoch: "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Genesis 5:22-24). The word "was" is italicized, indicating it was ADDED by the translators. What happened to Enoch? We know he was NOT IN HEAVEN! Christ said so! Christ had just come from there, and neither Enoch nor Elijah were anywhere around! The answer is the same as in the case of Elijah. God decided to SPARE ENOCH'S LIFE, because people were LOOKING FOR him to kill him!
Paul, writing of Enoch, said, "By faith Enoch was translated [transported] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). He was "not found," because people were trying to find him!
Now, notice further proof from your own Bible. Hebrews the eleventh chapter contains a list of God's greatest men and women; martyrs for their faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and many others such as Deborah are mentioned. Twice, we are told of these righteous men and women DIED. God said, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13).
Notice they DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISES of eternal life! They are NOT in heaven! Jesus Christ said so in no uncertain terms! God will bring them up to life at the same time as the apostles; the same time of the Second Coming of Christ! Notice the proof: "They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
"(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:37-40). They all DIED. Not a one of them received the promise! Why? Because God decreed that the FIRSTfruits of the Lamb shall all be resurrected at the same time!
The first is the sky, or the mantle of air which cloaks the earth; the atmosphere. This is the "heaven" in which clouds are formed, and birds and aircraft fly. There are many examples of the usage of the word "heaven" in connection with the air, or the atmosphere.
Birds fly in the open firmament of HEAVEN - Gen. 1:20.
The "second" heaven revealed in the Bible is that of SPACE; of the entire creation outside of the earth's atmosphere.
When David exulted, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork" (Psalms 19:1), he was speaking of the sun, moon, and stars; of our solar system and the universe.
Genesis 22:17 says,
"In blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven....
The THIRD heaven is the place of God's throne! The Apostle Paul was inspired to write specifically of this heaven. He said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
"How that he was caught up into paradise....(2 Corinthians 12:2-4).
------------------------------------------------
Enoch And Elijah Were Not In Heaven
When Christ said "…no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13), it is obvious He was referring to the "third heaven" from which He had come. Elijah was "taken up" into the "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere, to a safe place, where he lived out his remaining years. Elijah WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, so said your Savior! The letter Elijah sent to Elisha YEARS after he disappeared (2 Chronicles 21:12) proves it!
For centuries, it has been assumed both Enoch and Elijah were "in heaven." Because no distinction was made between the THREE different "heavens" revealed in the Bible, it was supposed these righteous men were caught up to the heaven of God; the "third heaven." Not so. They were transported IN THE AIR from great danger to a place of protection! Notice the truth about Enoch: "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Genesis 5:22-24). The word "was" is italicized, indicating it was ADDED by the translators. What happened to Enoch? We know he was NOT IN HEAVEN! Christ said so! Christ had just come from there, and neither Enoch nor Elijah were anywhere around! The answer is the same as in the case of Elijah. God decided to SPARE ENOCH'S LIFE, because people were LOOKING FOR him to kill him!
Paul, writing of Enoch, said, "By faith Enoch was translated [transported] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). He was "not found," because people were trying to find him!
Now, notice further proof from your own Bible. Hebrews the eleventh chapter contains a list of God's greatest men and women; martyrs for their faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and many others such as Deborah are mentioned. Twice, we are told of these righteous men and women DIED. God said, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13).
Notice they DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISES of eternal life! They are NOT in heaven! Jesus Christ said so in no uncertain terms! God will bring them up to life at the same time as the apostles; the same time of the Second Coming of Christ! Notice the proof: "They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
"(Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:37-40). They all DIED. Not a one of them received the promise! Why? Because God decreed that the FIRSTfruits of the Lamb shall all be resurrected at the same time!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That "heaven is not really heaven in 2Kings 2" is pretty imaginative when you consider that the USE of the term in the OT for this context is always the 3rd heaven.
But even more imaginative is this
Paul, writing of Enoch, said, "By faith Enoch was translated [transported] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). He was "not found," because people were trying to find him! </font>[/QUOTE]#1. In both the case of Enoch Gen 5 AND Elijah 2Kings 2 - we SEE that the FRIENDS and loved ones SOUGHT the missing man of God and in BOTH cases God took them to heaven (not just tossing them into the clouds to fall back some safer place!!)
#2. In Heb 11 Paul says that Enoch did not see death (did not die) because God took him - he was found pleasing to God. Enoch did not die.
#3. In 2Kings 2 we see N
NE chasing Elijah! Rather he has started the schools of the prophets and is now quite successful. All along the way friends and well-wishers ("fellow prophets in most cases" ) greet them and warn ELISHA that God is about to take up Elijah.
A double portion of ELIJAH's spirit falls on ELISHA when Elijah LEAVES and from then on the prophetic MINISTRY recorded at that time is that of Elisha!
Christ's Words in John DO NOT say that God has not TAKEN anyone to heaven. He words show that no PERSON as of their own selves ASCENDED as did Christ! And even THEN - Christ "HAD NOT NET ASCENDED" John 20!!
That leaves us with the compelling John 14:1-3 and 1Thess 4:13-16 sequence showing us that we are united with our loved ones IN the air with Christ who comes to TAKE US to that place He is now preparing for us IN HEAVEN!
In Christ,
Bob
IN Christ,
Bob
But even more imaginative is this
The word "was" is italicized, indicating it was ADDED by the translators. What happened to Enoch? We know he was NOT IN HEAVEN! Christ said so! Christ had just come from there, and neither Enoch nor Elijah were anywhere around! The answer is the same as in the case of Elijah. God decided to SPARE ENOCH'S LIFE, because people were LOOKING FOR him to kill him!
Paul, writing of Enoch, said, "By faith Enoch was translated [transported] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). He was "not found," because people were trying to find him! </font>[/QUOTE]#1. In both the case of Enoch Gen 5 AND Elijah 2Kings 2 - we SEE that the FRIENDS and loved ones SOUGHT the missing man of God and in BOTH cases God took them to heaven (not just tossing them into the clouds to fall back some safer place!!)
#2. In Heb 11 Paul says that Enoch did not see death (did not die) because God took him - he was found pleasing to God. Enoch did not die.
#3. In 2Kings 2 we see N
NE chasing Elijah! Rather he has started the schools of the prophets and is now quite successful. All along the way friends and well-wishers ("fellow prophets in most cases" ) greet them and warn ELISHA that God is about to take up Elijah. A double portion of ELIJAH's spirit falls on ELISHA when Elijah LEAVES and from then on the prophetic MINISTRY recorded at that time is that of Elisha!
Christ's Words in John DO NOT say that God has not TAKEN anyone to heaven. He words show that no PERSON as of their own selves ASCENDED as did Christ! And even THEN - Christ "HAD NOT NET ASCENDED" John 20!!
That leaves us with the compelling John 14:1-3 and 1Thess 4:13-16 sequence showing us that we are united with our loved ones IN the air with Christ who comes to TAKE US to that place He is now preparing for us IN HEAVEN!
In Christ,
Bob
IN Christ,
Bob
If Elijah didn't go to Heaven, where did he go? You said there are three heavens, the first is the atmosphere. The second is outer space, and the third one is where God resides. During Elijah's time, a human going to heaven was a rather radical concept. Most religions at that time in the Middle East taught that people survived as ghosts. Others taught you went to the underworld. Gods and goddesses lived in the heavens. It was not a place for humans. By taking Elijah to Heaven, God was making a very radical statement: that us little humans can reside with Him!
2Kings 2:11 - "And Elijah WENT UP by a whirlwind to HEAVEN".
This can easily be misunderstood.
How far UP does the wind go?
Certainly we have all seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind or tornado.
Elijah never left the Earth's atmosphere.
The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed (2 Kings 2:3,5) also knew Elijah was not to die then or leave the Earth. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2Kg. 2:16).
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MORE INDEPTH DETAILS ---
God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died (2 Kg. 1: 17-18) and a new king was ruling.
God could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same a s disqualifying him! Since God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well, the only thing God could do would be to remove Elijah so that another could fulfill the office (2 Kg. 2: 12-15).
During the reign of king Jehoram, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king (2 Chronicles 21: 12-15)! The king was evil and killed his brothers along with the princes of Israel & went into idolatry. In the letter, Elijah told the king he would die of a disease of the bowels as punishment.
From the wording of Elijah's letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these killings occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased, the king died (2Chron. 21: 18-20).
This proves the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind.
God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father --- and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehoshaphat. The letter Elijah had others deliver was recognized as his -- proving he was known to be alive someplace.
2Kings 2:11 - "And Elijah WENT UP by a whirlwind to HEAVEN".
This can easily be misunderstood.
How far UP does the wind go?
Certainly we have all seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind or tornado.
Elijah never left the Earth's atmosphere.
The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed (2 Kings 2:3,5) also knew Elijah was not to die then or leave the Earth. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2Kg. 2:16). </font>[/QUOTE]The tornado theory falls flat. The furthest a tornado has ever blown a human is one mile, and that person died of his injuries. Horses of fire and a chariot of fire also appeared: The Lord's heavenly host. They took him to the third heaven, which is a very radical thing because most religions in the Middle East at that time thought that only the gods live in Heaven. It was not a place for humans. By taking Elijah to Heaven, God was making a very radical statement: that us little humans can live with Him!
JFox1
Elijah was "taken up" into the "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere, to a safe place, where he lived out his remaining years. Elijah WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, so said our Savior!
When Jesus Christ said "…no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13), it is obvious He was referring to the "third heaven" from which He had come.
Elijah was "taken up" into the "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere, to a safe place, where he lived out his remaining years. Elijah WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, so said our Savior!
When Jesus Christ said "…no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13), it is obvious He was referring to the "third heaven" from which He had come.
Elijah was "taken up" into the "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere, to a safe place, where he lived out his remaining years. Elijah WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, so said our Savior! </font>[/QUOTE]Here is an explanation of John 3:13:
And no man hath ascended into heaven. No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things (John 3:12). To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them - demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Genesis 5:24; comp. Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there; but it means that no one had ascended and returned, so as to be qualified to speak of the things there.
But he that came down. The Lord Jesus. He is represented as coming down, because, being equal with God, he took upon himself our nature, John 1:14; Philippians 2:6-7. He is represented as sent by the Father, John 3:17; 34; Galatians 4:4; I John 4:9-10.
The Son of man. Called thus from his being a man; from his interest in man; and as expressive of his regard for man. It is a favorite title which the Lord Jesus gives to himself.
Which is in heaven. This is a very remarkable expression. Jesus, the Son of man, was then bodily oon earth conversing with Nicodemus; yet he declares that he is at the same time in heaven. This can be understood only as referring to the fact that he had two natures - that his divine nature was in heaven, and his human nature on earth. Our Savior is frequently spoken of in this manner. Comp. John 6:62; 17:5; 2 Corinthians 8:9. As Jesus was in heaven - as his proper abode was there - he was fitted to speak of heavenly things, and to declare the will of God to man. And we may learn,
1st. That the truth about the deep things of God is not to be learned of men. No one has ascended to heaven and returned to tell us what is there; and no infidel, no mere man, no prophet, is qualified of himself to speak of them.
2nd. That all the light which we are to expect on those subjects is to be sought in the Scriptures. It is only Jesus and his inspired apostles and evangelists that can speak of those things.
3rd. It is not wonderful that some things in the Scrptures are mysterious. They are about things which we have not seen, and we must receive them on the testimony of one who has seen them.
4th. The Lord Jesus is divine. He was in heaven while on earth. He had, therefore, a nature far above the human, and is equal with the Father, John 1:1. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, Chapter 3.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the only one to "Ascend" - Jesus did not have "God come and raise him" nor was Jesus "Caught up in the air " as we will be in 1Thess 4 -- rather "HE ascended" into heaven.
(Though to be technically correct - in John 20 HE says "I have Not yet ASCENDED to My Father")
It is that simple!
The saints are not said "to ASCEND into heaven" - not EVER!
Those who argue against the clearl bible teaching in 2Kings 2 and Gen 5 that GOD TOOK someone to heaven on the basis that Jesus is the only one that will ever "ASCEND to heaven" are missing the point entirely!
in Christ,
Bob
(Though to be technically correct - in John 20 HE says "I have Not yet ASCENDED to My Father")
It is that simple!
The saints are not said "to ASCEND into heaven" - not EVER!
Those who argue against the clearl bible teaching in 2Kings 2 and Gen 5 that GOD TOOK someone to heaven on the basis that Jesus is the only one that will ever "ASCEND to heaven" are missing the point entirely!
in Christ,
Bob
The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed (2 Kings 2:3,5) also knew Elijah was not to die then or leave the Earth. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2Kg. 2:16).
Elijah was taken to heaven - this Earth's atmosphere, where the clouds and birds are (Genesis 1:20).
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The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere
Acts 14:17 -- "Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons;...
http://www.carm.org/questions/threeheavens.htm
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Elijah was taken to heaven - this Earth's atmosphere, where the clouds and birds are (Genesis 1:20).
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The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere
Acts 14:17 -- "Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons;...
http://www.carm.org/questions/threeheavens.htm
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JohnFox1
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If Father and Son are co-equal persons:
1) how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
2) how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
3) Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
".......I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" - John 14:28.
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If Father and Son are co-equal persons:
1) how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
2) how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
3) Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).