Featured The Cross

Jesus, the man physically died on the cross, after completing His mission as the Lamb of God. As He died, He gave up His Spirit, Logos, God the Son.

Thus Christ became the propitiation, or means of salvation for all humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation by His shedding of blood, but that act did not reconcile anyone. Only after God gives an individual to Christ, transferring him or her into Christ's spiritual body, do they undergo the washing of regeneration. As a born anew, made alive together with Christ new creation, they are "at one with Christ" reconciled and having everlasting life.

 

When I think of the Cross, this song comes to mind and yes I've led and sung it many times... Gethsemane!... By Joseph Hart... Brother Glen

Many woes had Christ endured,
Many sore temptations met,
Patient, and to pain’s inured;
But the sorest trial yet
Was to be sustained in thee,
Gloomy, sad Gethsemane!

Came at length the dreadful night,
Vengeance, with its iron rod,
Stood, and with collected might,
Bruised the harmless Lamb of God:
See, my soul, the Saviour see,
Groveling in Gethsemane.

There my God bore all my guilt;
This through grace can be believed;
But the torments which he felt,
Are too vast to be conceived:
None can penetrate through thee,
Doleful, dark Gethsemane.

All my sins against my God ;
All my sins against his laws;
All my sins against his blood;
All my sins against his cause;
Sins as boundless as the sea;
Hide me, O Gethsemane.

Here’s my claim, and here alone;
None a Saviour more can need;
Deeds of righteousness I’ve none;
Nor a work that I can plead;
Not a glimpse of hope for me,
Only in Gethsemane.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
One almighty God of love,
Praised by all the heavenly host,
In thy shining courts above;
We poor sinners, gracious Three,
Bless thee for Gethsemane.

There my God bore all my guilt;
This through grace can be believed;
But the horrors which he felt,
Are too vast to be conceived:
None can penetrate through thee,
Doleful, dark Gethsemane.

---Alternative verses---

Came at length the dreadful night,
Vengeance, with its iron rod,
Stood, and with collected might,
Bruised the harmless Lamb of God:
See, my soul, the Saviour see,
Prostrate in Gethsemane.

There my God bore all my guilt;
This through grace can be believed;
But the horrors which he felt,
Are too vast to be conceived:
None can penetrate through thee,
Doleful, dark Gethsemane.

Sins against a holy God,
Sins against his righteous laws,
Sins against his love, his blood,
Sins against his name and cause
Sins immense as in the sea!
Hide me, O Gethsemane!

Here’s my claim, and here alone;
None a Saviour more can need;
Deeds of righteousness I’ve none;
No: not one good work to plead;
Not a glimpse of hope for me,
Only in Gethsemane.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
One almighty God of love,
Hymned by all the heavenly host,
In thy shining courts above;
We poor sinners, gracious Three,
Bless thee for Gethsemane.

 

The passages of scripture you quoted concern the Messiah, His suffering and death.

Unless you explain, as Van has done, what you think that suffering and death actually means, how can anyone agree or disagree with what you believe the cross means?

I can say I disagree with Van, which I do, but I still don’t know what you believe.

peace to you

 

Well, it seems the main question is whether the suffering and death actually atoned for the sin of specific people at the time Jesus died, or was it only potential atonement for people who would believe in the future?

There may be other questions, but that seems to be the focus

peace to you

 

I think that is a question as far as how far you want to go with being a Calvinist, and you're right on here that's going to be the main question. But the whole range of that question can be argued (quite vigorously) but it still can be among those who believe that the shed blood of Christ is essential for any hope of reconciliation between God and man.

I believe that the comparisons to the old testament blood sacrifices are correct. And the work of Jesus as a high priest but coming with his own blood, the sprinkling of blood in the Old Testament, the idea of a propitiation for sin, the idea that God was truly offended by our sin are all valid and scriptural, and essential.

I don't have a problem with viewing this as a ransom. I don't have a problem with viewing this as a way for God to be just and still able to forgive people for their sins. I don't have a problem with the atonement showing Christ as defeating Satan and the powers of darkness and becoming a victorious king. I don't even have a problem with the atonement being a good moral example to us for submitting to suffering as long as that is not the primary reason for it.

I have big problems with anything that makes it less than essential that Christ actually die on the Cross and shed his blood. Anything that does that guts the message of the Bible and sets the stage to start knocking away all the deity of Christ and make Him and Christianity into a moral message of values rather than a saving, God centered religion.

 

I think that Hebrews 2:13-14 provides good insight on this topic. Jesus said

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

His last part of verse 13 establishes the context for the next verse:

"Inasmuch then as the children [the ones that the Father gave to the Son] have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,"

John Owen has excellent comments on this in his "Death of Death in the Death of Christ".

 

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53

 

The bible is clear in that, we are told that Christ Jesus is the propitiation, the atonement, for the sins of the whole world. His death was the sacrifice offered to God to assuage His wrath and render Him propitious to sinners. So while all the sins were dealt with at the cross only those that actually call on Him for salvation will be saved. So it is not a potential atonement it is a potential salvation.
Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

Continue reading and we comes to verses that show for whom Christ died. Abraham's descendants.
When we look at Hebrews 2:17 "to make propitiation G2433 {atonement} for the sins of the people" we may be unsure who "the people" are but Hebrews 2:9 helps clarify this for us "But we see Jesus...that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." Further we can look at another text also in Hebrews that reinforces this point.
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Christ Jesus came to save sinners: 1Timothy 1:15 "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"

I would have to disagree with you that John Owen made excellent comments. The logical outcome of his words are far from biblical.

Owen asked, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not?
If not, why should they be punished for it?
If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not.
If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died?
If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”

Owen argues that Christ dying for a person means that unbelief would not stop that person from being saved, viz, "...why should that sin keep them from partaking of the fruit of his death more than their other sins for which he died?"
If, as Owen argues, the atonement means that unbelief doesn't disqualify someone from salvation, that seems to imply that faith makes no difference in whether one is saved.
The question then is how can faith making no difference in whether one is saved be reconciled with salvation through faith? {Romans 3:21-28, Galatians 3:26, Romans 1:16, Romans 10:17}

 

Does this mean you see no connection or foreshadowing in the sacrifice of Isaac, the Passover Lamb, and the sacrifices of atonement in the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant?

I suppose if you throw out the Bible and ignore the Old Testament then what Jesus did can be as shallow as any humans death.
He just died and that's that.

"It was a pity he suffered so, but there is no meaning in any of it. It just is what it is."

That's how I take your response here.

What you present may be the most shallow and worthless description of Christ Jesus death that I have ever read.

 

So, what did Christ's death mean? Or is it just another human death, with no significance?

Jon, your response was about as shallow as I have ever read regarding the death of our Lord. Surely you have a theological position deeper than what you posted.

 

Two pieces of wood (the cross) reconciled all humanity to God?
We are reconciled by two pieces of wood?

My mind isn't on earthly things. It's on the shallowness of your understanding of what Jesus did.

You deny any substitute. You deny any ransom. You simply say "he died."

 

You wrote

You seriously misconstrue Owen's position. I know he is not an easy read but maybe you should look over more carefully what he wrote.

 

Do you really believe it is for the whole world"? Did He die for HItler? If you say "Yes" then you have God either not being omniscient or Him dying for someone He knew would be supremely evil.

Did He die for the sins of those who had long since died before the Incarnation? David? Yes, certainly. I think we would agree on that. But how about Pharoah - a man God set up for His glory? Or Nimrod? Does it make any sense to you that God would die for those whose eternal destiny has long since been settled?

If you admit - as I think you ought - that Christ's atonement for those who lived pre-incarnation was not universal then why should those living from the Incarnation onward to our time be any different? God's foreknowledge makes one era as clear to Him as the other.