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The Crusades in the Islamic Mind

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Stratiotes, Oct 11, 2004.

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  1. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    Granted, we would argue that the acts described below during the Crusades were not the acts of "true" Christians perhaps. And, granted, there were horrible things done by them as well. But, these are events in history that every Muslim knows about and few in the west like to remember. And muslims tend to throw all Christians in the same category just as we often stereotype them. How long does it take for the memory of such things to disappear from a culture?
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    December 12, 1096: The small city of Ma'arra east of Antioch, falls to the crusades. The crusaders shock the Muslim world by eating human flesh from the adults and children massacred following their conquest. The Frankians would forever be referred to by Turkish historians as "cannibals".

    July 15, 1096: Jerusalem falls to the crusaders, who kill almost all of its inhabitants. An estimate of 70.000 to 100.000 civilians are murdered.
     
    #1 Stratiotes, Oct 11, 2004
  2. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    The good news is that the events of December 12, 1096 most likely never took place and are simply a bit of wartime propaganda.
    The bad news is that the events of July 15, 1096 most likely did take place.
     
    #2 mioque, Oct 13, 2004
  3. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Stratiotes said:

    "How long does it take for the memory of such things to disappear from a culture?"

    It depends on how the self-esteem of the culture. After Europe began its ascendancy, it dwelled less on the past than previously.

    Many Americans don't remember that the British burned Washington, D.C. To Americans, it is no longer relevant.

    To much of the Muslim world, however, their current position of powerlessness conjures up memories both modern and ancient; after all, many predominantly Muslim countries don't have to go back a millenium to find complaints about Western imperialism.

    (As for the Crusades, it might be well to point out that Europeans had as much to fear from the Crusaders as did the Muslims; just ask the Byzantines.)
     
    #3 rsr, Oct 13, 2004
  4. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Jews were massacred by the thousands upon thousands during the Crusades, too, yet they have not launched a jihad.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/crusadetime.html

    Some sources say the historical references to the Crusades were learned by Muslims from Western sources and there is no historical reference in Muslim literature. Have not had time to investigate whether that is true or not.

    Nevertheless, Jews have just as much of a "right" to remember the Crusades as Muslims. The Crusades are an excuse for jihad.
     
    #4 LadyEagle, Oct 13, 2004
  5. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    #5 mioque, Oct 14, 2004
  6. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    If you read the Talmud you will find that there are many Jews who hate Christians just as much as many Muslims do. Both have rejected Christ and need to hear and accept the gospel in order to become part of the Body of Christ.
     
    #6 JGrubbs, Oct 14, 2004
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    I agree that both need to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    And it may be true, JGrubbs, about the hatred, but the Jews haven't declared a "holy war" or jihad on non-Jews. And they certainly don't have schools which teach millions of Jewish students to kill all who aren't Jews, and they certainly don't train their children to wear homicide belts to blow up innocent people in ice cream parlors or public transportation.
     
    #7 LadyEagle, Oct 14, 2004
  8. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    I agree, I believe that while the Jews reject Christ and Christianity, the Muslims not only reject Christ, but follow a religion founded by a terrorist and straight out of the pits of hell.

    Not every Muslim is a terrorist, they don't all understand what Islam is founded on. Just like not everyone who calls themselves a Christian understand what the Bible teaches. Many people from many religions simply go through the motions with no real understanding.
     
    #8 JGrubbs, Oct 14, 2004
  9. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    I agree to some extent on the "never forget" mentality. The burning of Washington in 1812 is a good example - however, a counter might be the burning of Atlanta which many in the south have never forgotten/forgiven. The Balkans are another example of how long grudges can affect relations in a region. Americans and Europeans are not immune to such thinking.

    Another possible propaganda item is the Childrens' Crusade where the westerners apparently sold those who arrived into slavery. It is now argued by some that there never was a "Children's crusade" at all.
     
    #9 Stratiotes, Oct 14, 2004
  10. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    The "never forget" mentality is still alive and well in Dixie. We will never forget. [​IMG]
     
    #10 LadyEagle, Oct 19, 2004
  11. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    I read a very good book about a fictional character although well rooted in historical fact who joins a crusade. He is a second son of a minor english noble, unwanted by father and elder brother who certainly does not want to share the meagre land etc.

    His father furnishes his second son with a war horse and chain mail and weapons and a squire. This is a huge financial outlay and he goes off to basically win fame and fortune. His squire is a thief and a fool though so is his master.

    The crusade is hideous in its suffering, disease poor supplies, brackish water when there is any. Of course the war horse dies and is eaten by the starving army and the huge camp following. A knight with no horse is regulated to the foot a huge blow to an arrogant young mans pride.

    Any loot is picked over by the more important knights and I think he ends up with one second best pewter ware or such. He ends up dying on the walls of Jerusalem, so weakened by typhoid he is incontinent whist fighting and slides in his own muck.

    Such a gem of a book but I think Conan Doyle wrote it but I am not sure. It is gritty and realistic and certainly de glamourises any romantic vision of Crusade.

    It is also wrth remembering some crusaders went native and married or whatever and stayed on in the warmer climes where science,medicine etc were so much more advanced than in Europe at that time. The Muslim Gentleman had in many cases a greater adherence to His Code than the European equivalent.

    War is disgusting and every Nation commits attrocities, the winner gets to write the official history and censor out their evil deeds
     
    #11 Melanie, Oct 20, 2004
  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Sheeagle, don't forget that they declared their own little "holy war" in the first century. They were just spread out by the Romans, so they never really finished what they would have if they could have.
     
    #12 Daniel David, Oct 23, 2004
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    That's impossible; Islam didn't arise until the 7th century of the common era.
     
    #13 rsr, Oct 24, 2004
  14. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I was talking about Jews.
     
    #14 Daniel David, Oct 24, 2004
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