The Crux of the debate over OSAS

[The Biblicist]

Those who oppose OSAS simply do not understand and thus abuse those scriptures that deal with the MIDDLE LIFE of salvation.

1. PAST LIFE - Spiritual life by new birth - "quickened" obtained, never shall die - in the spirit - Jn. 3:6

2. PRESENT LIFE - "redeeming the time" "save your life shall lose it....lose his life shall save it"

3. FUTURE LIFE - shall put on incorruption...eteral life" in the body.

Much of the scriptues on salvation deal with the MIDDLE LIFE or present tense salvation which can be lost and saved ON A DAILY BASIS. It is from this body of scriptures that opponents of OSAS gather to attack the doctrine of OSAS. However, OSAS is based upon the PAST TENSE LIFE that can never be lost "in the spirit".

The PRESENT TENSE life that can be lost and saved is the SOUL/LIFE.

Here is how it works. All thoughts, words and actions originate from either a good or evil heart. All thoughts, words, and actions = YOUR MANIFEST LIFE OF WORKS.

The Lost person has an evil heart and therefore all thoughts, words and actions originating from that source are evil, as the heart is, because it is from the heart that all thoughts, words and actions originate from. If the motive is not "FOR THE GLORY OF GOD" then these are evil works (Mt. 15) no matter how "good" men may perceive them to be. One may help a little old lady across the street, but if the motive is anything short of "the glory of God" it is evil in God's sight. Hence, the lost man can do NO GOOD in God's sight because his heart is evil.

In contrast, the born again man has a DUAL nature. He can also manufacture thoughts, words and actions from a motive that is not motivated for the glory of God. All the TIME that is consumed with such impure thoughts, words and actions (works) is LOST, BURNED, WASTED and is an experience SEPARATED FROM GOD here and now (experiential death) which does not count on your behalf for the glory of God. The conseqeunces of such TIME spent is that you sow what you reap here and now (chastening, etc.), you lose rewards in the future and it is LOST forever for the cause of God.

However, if you set your affections on things above, if you think on heavenly things, if you yeild to the indwelling Spirit of God, if you submit the Spirit's leadership, He always produces thoughts, words and deeds in God's children that glorify God = works of righteousness. The consequences are you reap what you sow HERE AND NOW (peace, joy, love, spiritual growth, = experiential life/union with God, etc.) and "redeem" that time saved in rewards in heaven.

Hence, "to lose your life is to save it." You "lose" it for your own selfish purposes and "save" it by making it count for God's glory.

When the child of God yeilds to the wrong nature (Law of indwelling sin) during a period of time, during that period of time he is EXPERIENTIALLY and CONSCIOUSLY SEPARATED (DEATH) from the presence of God, His blessings, His promises, His leadership, etc. and loses that aspect of HIS LIFE forever. He is not separated from the actual presence of God but only at the conscious and feeling level of his experience.

 

[drfuss]

Those who oppose OSAS simply do not understand and thus abuse those scriptures that deal with the MIDDLE LIFE of salvation.

1. PAST LIFE - Spiritual life by new birth - "quickened" obtained, never shall die - in the spirit - Jn. 3:6

2. PRESENT LIFE - "redeeming the time" "save your life shall lose it....lose his life shall save it"

3. FUTURE LIFE - shall put on incorruption...eteral life" in the body.

Much of the scriptues on salvation deal with the MIDDLE LIFE or present tense salvation which can be lost and saved ON A DAILY BASIS. It is from this body of scriptures that opponents of OSAS gather to attack the doctrine of OSAS. However, OSAS is based upon the PAST TENSE LIFE that can never be lost "in the spirit".

The PRESENT TENSE life that can be lost and saved is the SOUL/LIFE.

Here is how it works. All thoughts, words and actions originate from either a good or evil heart. All thoughts, words, and actions = YOUR MANIFEST LIFE OF WORKS.

The Lost person has an evil heart and therefore all thoughts, words and actions originating from that source are evil, as the heart is, because it is from the heart that all thoughts, words and actions originate from. If the motive is not "FOR THE GLORY OF GOD" then these are evil works (Mt. 15) no matter how "good" men may perceive them to be. One may help a little old lady across the street, but if the motive is anything short of "the glory of God" it is evil in God's sight. Hence, the lost man can do NO GOOD in God's sight because his heart is evil.

In contrast, the born again man has a DUAL nature. He can also manufacture thoughts, words and actions from a motive that is not motivated for the glory of God. All the TIME that is consumed with such impure thoughts, words and actions (works) is LOST, BURNED, WASTED and is an experience SEPARATED FROM GOD here and now (experiential death) which does not count on your behalf for the glory of God. The conseqeunces of such TIME spent is that you sow what you reap here and now (chastening, etc.), you lose rewards in the future and it is LOST forever for the cause of God.

However, if you set your affections on things above, if you think on heavenly things, if you yeild to the indwelling Spirit of God, if you submit the Spirit's leadership, He always produces thoughts, words and deeds in God's children that glorify God = works of righteousness. The consequences are you reap what you sow HERE AND NOW (peace, joy, love, spiritual growth, = experiential life/union with God, etc.) and "redeem" that time saved in rewards in heaven.

Hence, "to lose your life is to save it." You "lose" it for your own selfish purposes and "save" it by making it count for God's glory.

When the child of God yeilds to the wrong nature (Law of indwelling sin) during a period of time, during that period of time he is EXPERIENTIALLY and CONSCIOUSLY SEPARATED (DEATH) from the presence of God, His blessings, His promises, His leadership, etc. and loses that aspect of HIS LIFE forever. He is not separated from the actual presence of God but only at the conscious and feeling level of his experience.

A good summary of the issue. ES believers automatically consider those scriptures that appear to conflict with ES, refer only to this present life and not to eternal life. Non-ES believers tend to consider ES conflicting scriptures to apply to eternal life in general. On both sides of this issue, people get out of these scriptures that appear to conflict with ES, only what they take to them.

There is no scripture that explicitly establishes ES without some interpretation. The same is true on the other side of the issue.

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast to the story that Biblicist is telling -

Paul says in 1Cor 15 - that if we (the saved saints) have hoped in this life only - we are of all people most to be pitied.

In Matt 10 Christ said that in this life we have not peace - but a sword - and we are to take up our cross and follow Christ - enduring hardship and suffering in this life - as a good soldier for Christ according to Paul's letter to Timothy.


2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.



1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified



Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

By contrast to the story that Biblicist is telling -

Paul says in 1Cor 15 - that if we (the saved saints) have hoped in this life only - we are of all people most to be pitied.

I don't deny the resurrection bob! That is the context for this statement! Always jerking scriptures out of context just as you do the scriptures below.

In Matt 10 Christ said that in this life we have not peace - but a sword - and we are to take up our cross and follow Christ - enduring hardship and suffering in this life - as a good soldier for Christ according to Paul's letter to Timothy.

This life is a war zone! However, we are not in a battle to win entrance into heaven as Christ already won that battle and defeated the foe FOR US. We are fighting another kind of battle - a battle to "redeem the time" for the glory of God, for our own experiential growth, blessings, and eternal benefits in heaven.

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Read it carefully. Not once does he say do this in order to enter heaven but only to make your calling and election sure - personal assurance AND for an ABUNDANT entrance into heaven.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

This text uses the PRESENT TENSE salvation or the MIDDLE LIFE. It has nothing to do about gaining or losing entrance into heaven but about "redeeming the time" here and now for the glory of God. This aspect of salvation can be lost or gained on a daily basis. It can be lost entirely without forfeiture of heaven (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Obtaining entrance into heaven is not a "race" but a "gift" from Christ who already ran that race and won it FOR US. What we have here is the specific calling as a gospiel minister, which is Paul's specific calling as a Christian. He does not preach the gospel in order to obtain heaven but in order to obtain a crown IN HEAVEN. This is how he "redeems the time" by faithfulness to his particular calling. This is his race to win. The saved mom, runs the same kind of race but after a different calling. To quit this race is to be set aside, disqualfied as in Olympic style races for that reward.

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[/QUOTE]

As usual Bob quotes what he neither understands or applies correctly. However, for the objective reader notice the differences Paul makes between "being found in his righteousness" versus "that I might know the power of his resurrection." The former refers to justification by faith that was obtained by denial of all personal righteousness and obtains eternal life and heaven as a past completed event. The latter has to do with the MIDDLE LIFE and on going incompleted action that obtains resurrection "out of the dead". The "power" of "the resurrection" is to be raised "out from among the dead." It is something YOU GROW IN. It is "redeeming the time" by the power of the Spirit which raised Christ from the dead and it is PRESENT VICTORY over "this body of death" (Rom. 7:24) whereby we daily conqueor the "law" of indwelling sin and death that resides in our flesh. It is to be raised out of death on a daily basis to live the resurrected life of Christ.