The other thread has been "closed" by the mods so I started this in case anyone wants to countinue, and also so I can respond to a post adressed to me.
Doubting Thomas,
I just came upon your post to me a few pages back from the last one.
You posted about 4-5 very long posts to me, with your comments in between these passages of scripture...
They were from so many different posts, and long posts at that, that I just dont have time to post them all in there entirety and comment on every statement you made.
But those are the scripture passages you posted, and this comment of your sums up what you were trying to say...
OK, all I am going to say is that every single scripture you posted is well known to everyone on my side of this arguement. (the truth of justification through faith alone)
Those passages of scripture do not disturb our position in that slightest bit. They fit like a hand in a glove with the truth of justification through faith in Christ alone. You are doing the same thing that the Roman Catholic cult does so well, and that is to fail to interpret them in light of the whole of scripture. In light of the whole of scripture, we end up with those passages speaking to more than one issue, but they never speak to our works having any part in our justification.
Sometimes the negative consequence of falling away, or disobedience, is to lose the rewards that would have been ours in heaven, as opposed to gaining them. Sometimes the negative consequences are problems in this life that could have been avoided. Sometimes the negative consequences are the sorrow we experience after failing. Sometimes they speak to Gods chastisement. Somethimes the scriptures you posted speak of people who have never been truly born again. They have been imposters. Sometimes they encourage us to live properly because we are children of the Light...through faith alone...and its the only truly rewarding way to live. On and on and on it goes.
But they DO NOT teach that justication is "part God" and "part our being good"
We are justified in Gods eyes through faith alone. It could not possibly be any clearer.
Our "new life" is an overflow of what has happened by faith alone.
God bless,
Mike
Doubting Thomas,
I just came upon your post to me a few pages back from the last one.
You posted about 4-5 very long posts to me, with your comments in between these passages of scripture...
"
First, the APOSTLE PAUL:
"Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, but you stand [present tense] by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22)
"And you who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel…" (Colossians 1:21-23)
"Moreover brethren I declare unto the gospel which I preached to you, which also you receive and in which you stand [present tense], by which you are also saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
So you see, the Apostle Paul is clearly stating that we must indeed do "our part"—that is, we must "continue in His goodness", "continue in the faith", and "hold fast to the gospel" in which we are currently "standing" if we don’t want to be "cut off" (from Christ), but rather be presented holy and blameless in His sight, not having "believed in vain". But since Paul is stating that our remaining in the faith-and, indeed, in Christ—is contingent on something we must do, namely "to continue" and "hold fast", he must be a "double-talker" or "flip-flopper" by your ‘definition’.
"[God] who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'; eternal life to do those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)
"Beware, brethren [ie fellow Christians], lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God". (Hebrews 3:12)
"But also for this reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged of his old sins. Therefore brethren be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
While acknowledging that God is able to keep us from stumbling (verse 24), Jude also commands the believers to "keep yourselves in the love of God" (verse 21).
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth of God is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)
They were from so many different posts, and long posts at that, that I just dont have time to post them all in there entirety and comment on every statement you made.
But those are the scripture passages you posted, and this comment of your sums up what you were trying to say...
"So you see, the Apostle Paul is clearly stating that we must indeed do "our part"—that is, we must "continue in His goodness", "continue in the faith", and "hold fast to the gospel" in which we are currently "standing" if we don’t want to be "cut off" (from Christ), but rather be presented holy and blameless in His sight, not having "believed in vain". But since Paul is stating that our remaining in the faith-and, indeed, in Christ—is contingent on something we must do, namely "to continue" and "hold fast", he must be a "double-talker" or "flip-flopper" by your ‘definition’.
OK, all I am going to say is that every single scripture you posted is well known to everyone on my side of this arguement. (the truth of justification through faith alone)
Those passages of scripture do not disturb our position in that slightest bit. They fit like a hand in a glove with the truth of justification through faith in Christ alone. You are doing the same thing that the Roman Catholic cult does so well, and that is to fail to interpret them in light of the whole of scripture. In light of the whole of scripture, we end up with those passages speaking to more than one issue, but they never speak to our works having any part in our justification.
Sometimes the negative consequence of falling away, or disobedience, is to lose the rewards that would have been ours in heaven, as opposed to gaining them. Sometimes the negative consequences are problems in this life that could have been avoided. Sometimes the negative consequences are the sorrow we experience after failing. Sometimes they speak to Gods chastisement. Somethimes the scriptures you posted speak of people who have never been truly born again. They have been imposters. Sometimes they encourage us to live properly because we are children of the Light...through faith alone...and its the only truly rewarding way to live. On and on and on it goes.
But they DO NOT teach that justication is "part God" and "part our being good"
We are justified in Gods eyes through faith alone. It could not possibly be any clearer.
Our "new life" is an overflow of what has happened by faith alone.
God bless,
Mike