"The doctrine by which the church stands or falls."

[DHK]

To add to Matt’s statement, strictly speaking, Salvation is not of faith alone, nor is it of works alone, but of Christ alone. Christ gives us both the gift of faith and the gift of good works, that we might use them both to live them out to fulfill our calling as God’s workmanship.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--You are wrong in your assessment of salvation. Salvation is by faith and by faith alone. This is the Scriptural teaching. A plain reading of the text above gives this clear teaching. not of works! Why do so many ignore what the Bible says when it so clearly put? I can tell you why--it is because they prefer to believe something not taught in the Bible and proof-text it by pulling Scripture out of context that doesn't teach the same. This is not an isolated text.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Again, a plain reading of this text and the reader knows that the teaching is by faith alone a man is justified and not by any work or other thing. This is the consistent teaching throughout the Bible. It is not considered "evangelical" or otherwise. It is considered "Biblical," for it comes from the Bible. It obviously contradicts the RCC tradition which doesn't come from the Bible but from their own traditon. Our authority is from the Word of God, not tradition.

Secondly, faith has an object, and that object is Jesus Christ. That faith is our own faith. I make the choice out of my own free will to choose or reject Christ. No one makes it for me. I am not forced to choose Christ. It is my faith, my choice, based on the facts of the gospel that have been presented to me.

Of course the evangelical protestant response would be; what’s the difference between working good works as a workman designed to do them, from earning merit.

Works deny the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus said "It is finished." There is nothing man can do to to merit eternal life. He paid the entire penalty himself. To think that by doing some work you can help out Christ in paying the penalty for our sins is utter blasphemy, and yet this is the blasphemy of the RCC and the Orthodox.

The Orthodox response would be that the Church doesn’t see the works we do for God as being meritorious in that way. That’s an innovation of Protestantism and not a part of Orthodox theology. Orthodoxy see it as simply fulfilling what God has created us to be.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--The Lord says that your good works are as filthy rags. He doesn't want them, nor does he accept them. The only time that the Lord accepts good works is after one comes to Christ; after one trusts the Lord as his Savior--never before. Good works can never play any part in salvation. Again that is a blasphemous teaching--to think that you can help Christ in the atonement.

Faith without works is dead.

Take it in its context. This is written to Christians, and applies only to living the Christian life. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Evangelical Protestant: “Can you be saved by good works”?

No! What blasphemy is this? Are you equal to Christ?

Orthodox: “Can you be saved by dead faith”?
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No again.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

DHK, referring to A_D's quote from James regarding faith without works you wrote:

Take it in its context. This is written to Christians, and applies only to living the Christian life. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Look at the context more closely:
"What does it profit my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?" (James 2:14)

Perhaps you'll want to reconsider your assertion that the context has "nothing to do with salvation".

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Please DHK, you owe it to youself and your church to at least finish with verse 10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now go back and re-read my post...
-

 

[DHK]

Please DHK, you owe it to youself and your church to at least finish with verse 10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now go back and re-read my post...-

I have read your post enough. You need to understand what the Bible teaches.
vs. 10 "WE ( believers in Christ) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works..."
Paul says "WE" He includes himself. He is not speaking of the unsaved. In verses 8 and 9 he explains salvation--how one is saved. In verse 10 he tells the purpose for which one is saved. Good works follow salvation, is not a part of it.

 

[DHK]

DHK, referring to A_D's quote from James regarding faith without works you wrote:

Look at the context more closely:
"What does it profit my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?" (James 2:14)

Perhaps you'll want to reconsider your assertion that the context has "nothing to do with salvation".

No, I don't; but I think you should if you study the chapter and the book in the right light and context.

 

[Matt Black]

Please just answer the question instead of ducking and weaving around it: can faith without works save? What is James' - Scripture's - answer?

 

[DHK]

Please just answer the question instead of ducking and weaving around it: can faith without works save? What is James' - Scripture's - answer?

According to Eph.2:8,9 and Rom.5:1 it is only faith without works that does save. There is no other way.
What does James teach?
James teaches that if a man is saved then works will follow his salvation. It is a natural outworking of his faith. He does not teach that works is a part of his salvation. He does not contradict the rest of the Bible.

 

[Matt Black]

Does James teach that faith without works saves - yes or no?

 

[DHK]

Does James teach that faith without works saves - yes or no?

Yes, Faith without works saves. Faith in Christ, and faith alone.

Sometimes a statement needs more than a cursory glance to attain it's full meaning. If I post on the board the statement:

Hey everyone, Congratulations to Matt. He didn't get drunk yesterday!!:thumbs:

What is the meaning of the statement?
How would most people, not knowing you, take the statement?
Do you think I should explain the context?

 

[TCGreek]

Does James teach that faith without works saves - yes or no?

This is a misleading question at best as DHK pointed out.

 

[BobRyan]

Does James teach that faith without works saves - yes or no?

I know this one!

no.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK, referring to A_D's quote from James regarding faith without works you wrote:

Look at the context more closely:
"What does it profit my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?" (James 2:14)

Perhaps you'll want to reconsider your assertion that the context has "nothing to do with salvation".

The works of Romans 2 and James 2 is in evidence of salvation -- it does not earn salvation. When the sinner comes to Christ he has no works even to show in evidence of salvation. But as Christ pointed out in Matt 7 the good tree will give evidence of the change.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Matt Black
Does James teach that faith without works saves - yes or no?

HP: No way. Faith without works is dead being alone, and dead faith will not save anyone.

Again, works are not thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of,' but rather are thought of in the sense of 'not without which.' "Show me thy faith without thy works but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone.”

Before anyone is saved they must do the work of repentance. Repentance does not come as a result of salvation. Repentance is required of man in order to be saved, without which no man shall see God.

Man’s will is indeed involved in salvation. Our will’s formed intents are NOT the grounds of our salvation, nor does the plan of salvation come as a product of our will. It is not by the will of man, but neither will any be saved apart from our wills active involvement. The mere mental assent which claims faith by itself is dead. One must involve the will in the formation of intents of obedience to God’s command to first repent.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: But as Christ pointed out in Matt 7 the good tree will give evidence of the change.

HP: Not that I disagree with your statement, but just the same, God commands man to start the change in the individual themselves. God has done His part and now “commands all men everywhere to repent.”
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The works of Romans 2 and James 2 is in evidence of salvation -- it does not earn salvation.

I don't think I ever said that works "earn" salvation. The only One whose work has earned salvation is CHRIST.

Regarding our works, to quote the Heavenly Pilgrim:
"Again, works are not thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of,' but rather are thought of in the sense of 'not without which.'.

I couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbs:
(That's the sense that works in Romans 2 and James 2 are connected with salvation)

 

[Agnus_Dei]

What is crucial is that, if we indeed have faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, that we manifest or reveal our faith in how we live and how we treat others.

Read Matthew 25:31-46, in which we find the parable of the sheep and goats. In this parable, Christ reveals that which He will ask of us when He judges us, as well as that which He expects from those who call themselves by His name. He asks if we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, given drink to the thirsty, ministered to the sick and imprisoned and, of utmost importance, whether we have discerned His very image in those around us, especially the least of the brethren. If we fail to put our faith into action through such works of mercy, our faith is purely intellectual, lip service, so to speak. Simply stated, if we accept Christ as the Son of the Living God and the Savior of the world, yet we fail to bring His love to others around us, then we are liars. Hence, faith without such good works is dead, and it is precisely on our willingness to put our faith into action that our eternal salvation hinges, as Christ reveals in Matthew 25.
-

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Doubting Thomas obviously understands the two senses works can be thought of..:thumbs: How about some of the rest of you? What about you DHK? Can it be rightfully said in one sense that we are saved without works and salvation is not by the will of man, yet in another sense be said that we will not be saved apart from our works and mans will is indeed involved?

Is a man granted a pardon for the sake of his works? Will a pardon be granted apart from his works? Can a man, by his works, merit a pardon? Will a just governor pardon a man without certain conditions being fulfilled, namely repentance and a change of heart and attitude towards ones crime? Can we not all see clearly that works are thought of in two distinct senses, one ‘for the sake of’ and another, ‘not without which?’

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Not that I disagree with your statement, but just the same, God commands man to start the change in the individual themselves. God has done His part and now “commands all men everywhere to repent.”
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

True but in Acts 5 He states that even repentance is a gift.

In Romans 2 he says it is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance"

However I also agree that repentance involves the act of the will of the unsaved, non-regenerate sinner.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Doubting Thomas obviously understands the two senses works can be thought of..:thumbs: How about some of the rest of you? What about you DHK? Can it be rightfully said in one sense that we are saved without works and salvation is not by the will of man, yet in another sense be said that we will not be saved apart from our works and mans will is indeed involved?

No, salvation is always, has always been, and will always be, by faith and faith alone. God has no other means of salvation. The object of that faith must be Christ.

Is a man granted a pardon for the sake of his works? Will a pardon be granted apart from his works? Can a man, by his works, merit a pardon? Will a just governor pardon a man without certain conditions being fulfilled, namely repentance and a change of heart and attitude towards ones crime? Can we not all see clearly that works are thought of in two distinct senses, one ‘for the sake of’ and another, ‘not without which?’

Man, in no way, can ever merit salvation. That would be a slap on the face of Christ, an insult to his atoning work on the cross. Either one believes what he did on the cross is sufficient enough to pay the penalty for our sins, or it isn't. If it isn't then he rejects and he believes (wrongly) that he can make it on his own to heaven. But sadly, he will die and spend an eternity in hell for his rejection of Jesus Christ.
Repentance is a term that needs to be rightly defined. Repentance is not a work. Repentance is not reformation. Repentance is not sorrow. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sins. Those things have nothing to do with repentance. Find out what Biblical repentance is. It is not a work. Neither is faith a work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Find out what Biblical repentance is. It is not a work. Neither is faith a work.

HP: What is Biblical repentance? You say it is not a work. Is it faith, or something else? Is the will of man involved in fath and or repentance?

When Jesus said that unless we repent will all like wise perish, was He commanding us to do anything or just stating a fact? We Jesus started His earthly ministry, what were the first words recorded that he spoke? Was it a command for us to do, or was it simply somehow just the stating of a fact? Whose duty is it to repent? Are we passive or active in repentance?