"The doctrine by which the church stands or falls."

[Doubting Thomas]

DT, expect a response involving "thunder". In other news, bears in forested areas don't use rest-rooms and elderly German in the Vatica admits to being a bit Catholic. Film at 11.

:laugh:

Yes, I suspect I am about hear a lot of "thundering forth" of Scripture verses (which will indeed consist of some good verses as far as what they actually do teach), but nary a one which will state that "one is justified by faith alone".

 

[D28guy]

Matt and Doubting Thomas,

Here is a "tip of the iceberg" list.....

""being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

Needless to say, there are SO many more. I could go on and on and on.

The *supposed* problem of the James scripture using "faith" and "alone" together is so absurd, and has been explained so many times , that I'm not going to take the time to explain it yet again. You have heard already, and are accountable.

My best advice to both of you, and anyone else struggling with the foundantional truth of justification through faith alone, is this:

Take a considerable amount of time and devote this time to a prolonged time of feeding on the books of Romans and Galatians. Study deeply and prayerfully, with a heart attitude of...and this is the most important part..."Lord, open my eyes, that I might see the wonderful truth that you have for me in these scriptures regarding this topic."

God bless,

Mike

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Matt and Doubting Thomas,

Here is a "tip of the iceberg" list.....



Needless to say, there are SO many more. I could go on and on and on.

The *supposed* problem of the James scripture using "faith" and "alone" together is so absurd, and has been explained so many times , that I'm not going to take the time to explain it yet again. You have heard already, and are accountable.

So in other words D28guy, you’re conceding that there’s not one verse that clearly states: ..justified by faith alone."

My best advice to both of you, and anyone else struggling with the foundantional truth of justification through faith alone, is this:

Take a considerable amount of time and devote this time to a prolonged time of feeding on the books of Romans and Galatians. Study deeply and prayerfully, with a heart attitude of...and this is the most important part..."Lord, open my eyes, that I might see the wonderful truth that you have for me in these scriptures regarding this topic."

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you should, in your own words: Study deeply and prayerfully, with a heart attitude of...and this is the most important part..."Lord, open my eyes, that I might see the wonderful truth that you have for me in these scriptures regarding this topic."
-

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So in other words D28guy, you’re conceding that there’s not one verse that clearly states: ..justified by faith alone."

Yeah, I asked Mike for ONE VERSE clearly stating that one is "justified by faith alone." Period. Predictably I got some verses talking about justification by faith (which is of course true) and even some which in context teach justification by faith as opposed to and apart from the works or deeds of the Mosaic Law (which is also true).

However, I too am still waiting on the ONE VERSE that says, contrary to the unambiguous statement of James (which clearly states one is justified by WORKS and not faith alone), that "one is justified by faith alone." Period.

And, Mike, I really have spent a lot of time in Paul's epistle--particularly Romans and Galatians--and I haven't found "justification by faith alone". ANYWHERE. Neither have I found this alleged doctrine in James...nor in John's epistles...nor in Peter's writings...nor in the words of our LORD.

(In fact, I've shown you the clear words of the Lord (John 5:28-29) and Paul (Romans 2:6-10) which state that God will 'render to each man according to his deeds', including eternal life for those who have done good. AND THAT'S JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. So much for "sola fide"...)

Agnus_Dei (to Mike): Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you should, in your own words: Study deeply and prayerfully, with a heart attitude of...and this is the most important part..."Lord, open my eyes, that I might see the wonderful truth that you have for me in these scriptures regarding this topic."
-

I agree. I suppose Mike assumes that if one prays in this manner that the inevitable result will be an acceptance of "sola fide". However, in my case the opposite took place. It was from studying and praying that I came to the conclusion that the Bible does not teach "justification by faith alone" (which is what I used to believe), but rather that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17) and therefore cannot save (James 2:14) and that the only thing that avails in Christ is a "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Doubting Thomas: And, Mike, I really have spent a lot of time in Paul's epistle--particularly Romans and Galatians--and I haven't found "justification by faith alone". ANYWHERE. Neither have I found this alleged doctrine in James...nor in John's epistles...nor in Peter's writings...nor in the words of our LORD.

HP: I have to be reminded of a professing Christian I knew that I spoke to. We were talking and the topic of smoking came up, which by the way he was at the time smoking on his pipe. When he asked me what I thought about it, as he was gently blowing smoke rings up around his face, I told him that our body was the temple of the Holy Spirit and if we destroy our temple, God says He will destroy us.

As he thought carefully on this for a moment, he continued to blow smoke rings and said to me with a very contemplating look on his face, “Think deeply on that text, think deeply.” The only thing I could figure out was he must have thought if one thought deeply and long enough on the text, the true meaning would disappear in a cloud of smoke. Does that sound familiar?

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"So in other words D28guy, you’re conceding that there’s not one verse that clearly states: ..justified by faith alone.""

Completely false. The scriptures teach that truth over and over and over again. Powerfully. Forcefully. Beautifully.

" Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you should, in your own words: Study deeply and prayerfully, with a heart attitude of...and this is the most important part..."Lord, open my eyes, that I might see the wonderful truth that you have for me in these scriptures regarding this topic.""

*MAYBE* I should???

Agnus...that is my hearts attitude EVERY SINGLE TIME I feed upon Gods living truth found in His scriptures. That should be EVERYONES heart attitude.

It was when I started doing that that God began to unfold His truth regarding this topic and make it so clear to me.

It was when I put aside my calvinism books(as good as they were), and put aside by arminianism books(as good as they were) and put aside my pentecostal books and baptist books(as good as those both were) and asked Almighty God to teach me Himself, and open my eyes to what He wanted me to learn, that wonderful things began to happen.

Wonderful truth started to fall into place with great clarity.

God is very very good at teaching, when we let Him do it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Completely false. The scriptures teach that truth over and over and over again. Powerfully. Forcefully. Beautifully.

Where?! None of the verses you cited, not one, teaches that!

[ETA - and, in response to your plea to read the Scriptures with God opening our eyes, can I just second what others have said, namely that (a) I used to believe as you do re sola fide and (b) it was precisely through reading the Scriptures having prayed for God to open them to me that I came to the conclusion that sola fide was wrong. Now, that presents an epistemological problem , doesn't it: both of us, with the same Scriptures and same Holy Spirit dwelling within us, have arrived at different conclusions. What could that mean? Either of the following possible solutions present themselves:

1. One of us doesn't have the Holy Spirit ie: isn't saved

2. The Holy Spirit is pretty useless at guiding us into all truth and Jesus accordingly lied in John 16:13

3. Individual interpretation of Scripture doesn't produce truth and that's not how the Holy Spirit works in leading us into all truth per John 16:13; He does it some other way.

Now, I'm not prepared to accept #1: by the grace of God I am saved and I trust am continuing to be saved; I think you are too and trust that you will extend the same courtesy to me. #2 is also ruled out of court for me since I cannot be a disciple of a liar. That just leaves #3, then, and I would suggest that the solution lies within the methodology that Christians adopted from the start, that is recognising that the Holy Spirit acts corporately]

 

[D28guy]

Matt.

I said, after quoting several scriptures that support justification through faith alone....

The scriptures teach that truth over and over and over again. Powerfully. Forcefully. Beautifully"

And you said...

"Where?! None of the verses you cited, not one, teaches that!"

I'm afraid they do Matt. And hundreds more support this foundational truth. I cant make you see it. I cant open your eyes. I can only share them and leave the rest to God.

"and, in response to your plea to read the Scriptures with God opening our eyes, can I just second what others have said, namely that (a) I used to believe as you do re sola fide and (b) it was precisely through reading the Scriptures having prayed for God to open them to me that I came to the conclusion that sola fide was wrong."

In my post we were discussing justification through faith alone, but we can switch if you want. The same truth applies regarding the truth that we are to turn to the scriptures alone as our truth source, and every believer is expected to do that, with the Holy Spirit as their guide.

Nobody is denying that God has placed good teachers of the scriptures into the body of Christ. And we are to consider what they teach, but never submit ourselves blindly to their views, as cultic groups like the Jehovahs Wittnesses, Mormans, David Koresh and the Catholic Church expect of their victims. We *consider* what good teachers offer, but ultimetly we do as the Bereans did and search the scriptures to make sure we agree.

Any good teacher will tell people to "never" believe what they teach "hook line and sinker", but rather test them against the scriptures.

"Now, that presents an epistemological problem , doesn't it:"

Not for me it doesnt.

"both of us, with the same Scriptures and same Holy Spirit dwelling within us, have arrived at different conclusions."

That happens sometimes. Its no big deal. Regarding that issue, God says...

"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind, for who are you to judge anothers servant?"

"What could that mean? Either of the following possible solutions present themselves:


1. One of us doesn't have the Holy Spirit ie: isn't saved"

I know thats not true of me, and I trust not of you.

"2. The Holy Spirit is pretty useless at guiding us into all truth and Jesus accordingly lied in John 16:13"

The Holy Spirit is very very effective as a teacher and Christ speaks nothing but truth.

"3. Individual interpretation of Scripture doesn't produce truth and that's not how the Holy Spirit works in leading us into all truth per John 16:13; He does it some other way."

Individual interpretation is what God expects of all of us...

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, repoof, correction, instruction in rightiousness, that the man of God might be complete, and thoroughly equipped for every good work" (one passage among the multitudes)

Notice Matt, it doesnt say the "Hierarchy of God" might be thoroughly equipped, or the "Teachers" of God might be thoroughly equipped, or the "organisation" of God might be thoroughly equipped.

No. It says the man of God might be thoroughly equipped.

"Now, I'm not prepared to accept #1: by the grace of God I am saved and I trust am continuing to be saved; I think you are too and trust that you will extend the same courtesy to me.

Sure.

"#2 is also ruled out of court for me since I cannot be a disciple of a liar.

Me neither.

"That just leaves #3, then, and I would suggest that the solution lies within the methodology that Christians adopted from the start, that is recognising that the Holy Spirit acts corporately"

That is not what has been accepted from the start. From the start it was the scriptures that are the standard. And ALL of us are to turn to them. Just liked the Bereans who tested the Apostles against the scriptures. That truth is powerfully taught in the scriptures. In the old testament, the gospels and the epistles. It could not possibly be any clearer.

The cultic Catholic view of a "Hierarchy" to command their people what to believe and practice, and keep them in bondage to them, wasnt invented until 300-400 years later, when Constantine began the paganization of Gods church.

I mean, doesnt it bother you that the following counterfiet groups believe as you are attempting to present?....

Jehovahs Wittnesses
Jim Jones
Mormons
David Koresh
Catholic Church
Mary Baker Eddy's group

My goodness, Matt. You want to run with THOSE guys?

ALL of them promote the same cultic idea that you are espousing. That regular christians are unable to be taught of God directly. No, they need a "special" teacher or "Hierarchy" of some sort...those super Holy *special* ones to spoon feed them what they command them to believe.

That is not Gods way and the evidence against it is OVERPOWERING.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Unlike you, I don't lump together the Catholic Church with those other groups which, for me, demonstrate the extreme danger of sola Scriptura plus individuals' interpreting the Bible, outwith the checks and balances that the whole Church working corporately achieves. As an Orthodox friend of mine once put it, sola scriptura is ultimately sine ecclesia; if all that is required is "me, Jesus and my Bible", then what happens to "where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there"?

I would profoundly disagree with you that doctrinal disagreements are 'no big deal'; for example the 5-point Calvinist view of God is so far removed from the Arminian view of God that de facto there are two different gods being created.

You still haven't shown me the Scripture that says that we are saved by faith alone. I repeat that none of the verses you quoted teach that - please show me by reference to those verses how they do; thus far you have failed to do that.

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

"Unlike you, I don't lump together the Catholic Church with those other groups"

You should. They all believe the same thing. Their people can not learn from God through the scriptures. The people are told "WE are the interpreters of the scriptures. WE tell YOU what you must believe. YOU are completly dependant on US. WE are the "truth interpreters".

"which, for me, demonstrate the extreme danger of sola Scriptura plus individuals' interpreting the Bible, outwith the checks and balances that the whole Church working corporately achieves. As an Orthodox friend of mine once put it, sola scriptura is ultimately sine ecclesia; if all that is required is "me, Jesus and my Bible", then what happens to "where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there"?"

C'mon, Matt. You know better than that.

As I pointed out earlier, evangelicals, pentecostals, charismatics and all the rest ALL understand that we are to regularly gather together with other believers. And we do that. We are a family of brothers and sisters, and we are all gifted in different ways. Some are an eye, others are an ear or a hand. Some are pastors, some evangelists, some prophesy, some are bible teachers, some helps. etc. We gather together regularly to bless and edify one another and learn from each other.

And you know this. You know full well that evangelicals and other protestants gather together regularly as one body.

What was DO NOT promote is the cultic idea of a "Teaching Mageterium" and ruling "Hierarchy" to rule over Gods people and command them what to believe and keep them in bondage to the "organisation"

"I would profoundly disagree with you that doctrinal disagreements are 'no big deal'; for example the 5-point Calvinist view of God is so far removed from the Arminian view of God that de facto there are two different gods being created."

Nonsense. I have good friends who are calvinists as I am and good friends who are arminians. We get along just fine. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and co-laborers in the harvest. Some have pentecostal or charismatic leanings as I do, but some dont. But we worship and love the same God and worship and love the same Jesus. We share the same gospel with the lost.

The protestant/evangelical world is filled with ecumenical gatherings and ventures.

"You still haven't shown me the Scripture that says that we are saved by faith alone. I repeat that none of the verses you quoted teach that - please show me by reference to those verses how they do; thus far you have failed to do that."

Needless to say, I have shared many scriptures, and there are literally hundreds more.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Matt,



You should. They all believe the same thing.

Really?! So Catholics believe the same as JWs, do they? How can that be since JWs deby the Trinity whereas Catholics affirm it. I'm sorry, but your statement in absurd.

As I pointed out earlier, evangelicals, pentecostals, charismatics and all the rest ALL understand that we are to regularly gather together with other believers. And we do that. We are a family of brothers and sisters, and we are all gifted in different ways. Some are an eye, others are an ear or a hand. Some are pastors, some evangelists, some prophesy, some are bible teachers, some helps. etc. We gather together regularly to bless and edify one another and learn from each other.

And you know this. You know full well that evangelicals and other protestants gather together regularly as one body.

No I don't know this. In fact, what I see is the exact opposite: groups of evangelicals anathematising each other all because, on the basis of sola Scriptura, they have reached differing conclusions form each other.

Nonsense. I have good friends who are calvinists as I am and good friends who are arminians. We get along just fine. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and co-laborers in the harvest. Some have pentecostal or charismatic leanings as I do, but some dont. But we worship and love the same God and worship and love the same Jesus. We share the same gospel with the lost.

The protestant/evangelical world is filled with ecumenical gatherings and ventures.

No - see above.

Needless to say, I have shared many scriptures, and there are literally hundreds more.

I note you've failed to answer my question - you may have shown many Scriptures but you have failed to demonstrate how they state sola fide

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Wait for it....wait for it.... wait for it...

If we're patient, I'm pretty sure we'll see more of the same bald assertions that the "hundreds" of scriptures posted teach and thunder forth the "wonderful, beautiful" truth of sola fide (despite the fact that not a single one of those verses posted state that one "is justified by faith alone".)

We'll also see more of the continued lumping of all the disparate Protestant sects together (aka, 'The Good Guys') while the Roman Catholics are lumped in with such nonChristian cults as the Mormons, JWs, Koresh, etc (aka, 'The Bad Guys')--because, you see, 'The Good Guys' are good because they don't let anyone tell them what to believe about Scripture and are free to come to their own conclusions about it's meaning (however contradictory those conclusions may be) as they work hand in hand in "the harvest"; while 'The Bad Guys', who have come to their own conclusions about the meaning Scripture (however vastly different those conclusions may be) try to force every one else (at least their 'minions') what to think!

Never mind that many of 'The Good Guys' don't even subscribe to "sola fide"--the doctrine which the church allegedly stands or falls. Also, it's ironic that an increasing number of 'The Good Guys' (non-Roman Catholic Prots, such as Thomas Oden and DH Williams) are teaching about the importance of the Church's shared Tradition, particularly that of her first formative centuries, in coming to a consensus regarding the faith, as this consensus has indeed acted historically in hammering out the great Creeds and the Conciliar Trinitarian and Christological definitions. In other words, in contrast to the idea of individual private interpretation, these 'Good Guys' acknowledge that, as Matt has mentioned, the Church by the guidence of the Holy Spirit has interpreted corporately the faith and the Scriptures which she has corporately received from the Apostles. In doing so, these men have recognized the obvious common ground they have with (gasp!) certain of the 'Bad Guys'--the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox--as opposed to the heresies of other 'Bad Guys'--Mormons and JWs. (So much, I guess, for the hard and fast categorical distinction between 'Good Guys' and 'Bad Guys'...)

Of course, this appeal to the Church's shared Apostolic Tradition is nothing new in the "Protestant" (aka, 'Good Guy') world: classical Anglicans have appealed for years to the orthodox catholic consensus of the Undivided Church (particularly the first five centuries) in interpreting the Scriptures and Christian faith handed down by the Apostles. (Looks like Matt and I are about to be moved to 'Bad Guy' status since we apparently don't think for ourselves :tongue3. They believed that such a consensus was the only sure basis of reform and protest against medieval papal abuses without succumbing to the increasing number of novel and conflicting private heterodox opinions, particularly prevalent on the Continent at that time.

 

[Matt Black]

:applause: Happy to be a 'bad guy' with DT and our Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran and Orthodox 'running dog' friends!

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

"Really?! So Catholics believe the same as JWs, do they? How can that be since JWs deby the Trinity whereas Catholics affirm it. I'm sorry, but your statement in absurd."

Good grief, Matt. Why are you "playing dumb" now?

You are a bright guy. You know exactly what I meant. They all believe the same thing regarding not allowing their people to feed on the scriptures themsleves. They keep their people in bondage by convincing them that THEY and THEY ALONE are the interpreters of the scriptures. It is a normal charcteristic for cults, and the Catholic Church fits the bill perfectly.

You know what I meant. I'm disappointed in you to be honest.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

No playing dumb here, Mike. I'm just astounded that you choose to lump together Catholics with these other groups. And it is not correct that Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans don't permit their people to read the Scriptures for themselves; it's just that there are certain parameters within which they should be interpreted to avoid the kind of gross distortions and abuses produced by sola Scriptura.

 

[Eliyahu]

No playing dumb here, Mike. I'm just astounded that you choose to lump together Catholics with these other groups. And it is not correct that Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans don't permit their people to read the Scriptures for themselves; it's just that there are certain parameters within which they should be interpreted to avoid the kind of gross distortions and abuses produced by sola Scriptura.

It is just a human beautification of their own faults. God hates dual balances.
Others' adultery is adultery, your own adultery is Romance, like that.

Do you remember the thread, titled " Great Protestant Fallacy...etc" which criticize the interpretation of the Bible for the believers themselves?

I recommended Agnus Dei to read the Bible without any assistance, without any prejudice, so that he may hear the voice from God Himself. Then some of you opposed to that recommendation.

Catholics are very much concerned about the situation where their people read the Bible for themselves without having their minds brainwashed with the Catholic theories.

All human beings need the neutral approach to God and shoul let the Holy Spirit teach them. The Holy Spirit is alive, and He will teach and guide the people coming to Him, by all the truth.

RCC prohibits this and are very much scared about it, and therefore they set " the Parameters"

 

[Matt Black]

All Christian groups and denominations do that, Eliyahu; suppose you were to stand up on the next Lord's Day in your local Meeting and state to the assembled Brethren that you had come to the conclusion through reading Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that baptismal regeneration was true, or that Christians should be governed by Bishops - see how long it would take before they disfellowshipped you...

 

[Eliyahu]

All Christian groups and denominations do that, Eliyahu; suppose you were to stand up on the next Lord's Day in your local Meeting and state to the assembled Brethren that you had come to the conclusion through reading Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that baptismal regeneration was true, or that Christians should be governed by Bishops - see how long it would take before they disfellowshipped you...

It can not happen, because Baptismal Regeneration is false and untrue and I wouldn't stand up for that.
We do follow the teachings of the Bible itself even in the Worship Service, therefore we can hardly have the problems like that.

Neutral Approach to the Bible Truth, without being brainwashed by any human doctrines will lead to the Truth.

People are scared to confront the Truth.

Truth will set you free, dear Matt.

 

[Matt Black]

It already has.

Baptismal regeneration is only regarded by you as 'false' because of the lens through which you read the Scriptures. It is your interpretation.

 

[Eliyahu]

It already has.

Baptismal regeneration is only regarded by you as 'false' because of the lens through which you read the Scriptures. It is your interpretation.

According to Baptismal Regeneration by interpretting John 3:5 as meaning Water Baptism,

One minute before the Baptism, the person is not born again.

One minute after the Baptism, the person is born again.

The problem is that it means they baptized a Unbeliever then the Unbeliever became a Believer by the magic power of Water. It sounds like Aquaris Religion.

Read Acts 8:37, " if thou believe..,. wholeheartedly, you may..."

The Eunuch already believed in Jesus before Baptism.

Anyone is saved by believing in Jesus as the Robber was, though he was not baptised.

Water Baptism is just a symbol of what was believed already.