"The doctrine by which the church stands or falls."

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Did you have a Bible text for that?

LOL Bob, you asked if Chrismation was biblical. I explained what Chrismation was

Indeed you stated that this was a church tradition that came about AFTER the Acts 8 practice IN SCRIPTURE was no longer taking place.

and showed you definitively the biblical precedent

No you clearly admit that we have NO examples in scripture of spiritual gifts given through annointing oil and that this is something made up by the church OUTSIDE the Bible.

and how and why the Early Church practiced this and why this practice warranted change in regard to oil as the Church grew.

Eventhough the Church teaches Apostolic Succession, it would still be impossible for even the sucessors to lay hands on every baptized Christian.

Can you show me where anointing with oil isn’t biblical Bob?

on the contrary the BIBLICAL form is in James 5 in annointing the sick so that they will be healed.

You have argued BEYOND that -- saying that simply "making stuff up" is ALSO another valid way to come up with things like "annointing oil for imparting the gift of the Holy Spirit." (in essence)

Can you show me Bob where Christ instructed His Apostles to lay hands on newly Baptized Christians?

Can you explain why those in Acts had yet to receive the Holy Spirit, yet they were baptized?
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The Holy Spirit takes action BEFORE one is saved as we see in John 16 and John 3 "CONVICTING of sin and righteousness and judgment" AT conversion (nobody laying hands on anybody) the sinner is BORN again.

But the Acts 8 event had to do with the 1Cor 12 issue of GIFTS of the Holy Spirit.

Even Paul says in 1Cor 14 "DESIRE EARNESTLY spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" speaking to saved NT believers in Corinth. Many of whom already had amazing spiritual gifts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here again we digress from the topic except that I am trying to point out the contrast between man "making stuff up" vs accepting the sola scriptura doctrines of the Bible.

 

[Eliyahu]

I explained in an earlier post the Orthodox view of Baptism, in which DHK made a mockery out of.

Baptism washes away our sins and restores the image of Adam and thus one enters into the saving shelter of the Church. Through Chrismation, one receives the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and is therefore ‘sealed’ through which we become partakers of the fullness of Christ. Even all this won’t guarantee you a free ticket into heaven…we still have to workout our own salvation in both fear and trembling. We still have to finish the race, as St. Paul says. But being in Christ’s Church, which acts as a hospital, we begin the healing and we are given the tools necessary to finish the race.

Are the sins washed away by the Baptism? or by the Blood of Jesus Christ?

Isn't it the Belief of the person that links him or her with the fact of Blood of Jesus at the Cross so that he or she may be saved?

The Baptism is the sacrament which shows, reminds, declares such fact and truth materialized in that person by the believing already, isn't it?

If Baptism can wash away our sins, Jesus died unnecessarily.

This doesn’t mean that Orthodoxy has a monopoly on God or that salvation only exist within the Orthodox Church. But Christ did establish a Church and within that Church we find the fullness of the faith, but God’s not limited in that capacity. I won’t encourage my cousin who’s involved in a Methodist Church that has an AA program, b/c that’s were God wants him as a recovering alcoholic. He knows that he can slip up and fall, but he’s working out his own salvation and that’s where he feels he can obtain that and that’s where God meets him.

As for the thief on the Cross, if you ever see an Orthodox Church, you will notice that on the dome is a Cross. It’s a Russian 3 bar Cross. The top bar bears the sign “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”; reminding us that Christ is King of Glory!! The footboard, which was used by the Roman executioners in Christ’s time is slanted up on the right for the thief who repented and entered Paradise and down on the left for the thief who railed at Christ and was damned.
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No one can work out his or her own salvation.
Salvation comes by the Holy Spirit, by accepting Him who informs what Jesus has done at the Cross.

What Apostle Paul said in Epistle Philippians 2:12 and 3:12 are the second stage Salvation after the Salvation of Being Born Again, which is actually the Sanctification and can be attained by following the Holy Spirit indwelling in them.

You stand on the wrong grounds and therefore misunderstand quite a lot again.

 

[DHK]

LOL Bob, you asked if Chrismation was biblical. I explained what Chrismation was and showed you definitively the biblical precedent and how and why the Early Church practiced this and why this practice warranted change in regard to oil as the Church grew.

Eventhough the Church teaches Apostolic Succession, it would still be impossible for even the sucessors to lay hands on every baptized Christian.

Can you show me where anointing with oil isn’t biblical Bob?

Can you show me Bob where Christ instructed His Apostles to lay hands on newly Baptized Christians?

Can you explain why those in Acts had yet to receive the Holy Spirit, yet they were baptized?
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Pope John XXIII baptized a bell. Did that make it Biblical Agnus? You can't make an argument from silence.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"Baptism washes away our sins and restores the image of Adam and thus one enters into the saving shelter of the Church."

The Catholic cult brainwashes her victims with that very lie, Agnus.

We are NOT saved by any counterfiet shelter of any counterfeit church. We are not even saved by the true church. The true church here on earth is nothing more than all of the born again people on earth. Nothing more. And we...the church...do not save anyone.

We are saved by a person, Agnus. That person is Jesus Christ. He is...

Our savior
Our shelter
Our peace
Our life
Our source of power
Our source of truth
Our EVERYTHING

He saves His people, Agnus. He personally saves each one individually. There is no other way to be saved but individually by Christ Himself. The only people involved are the sinner, the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"No man can come to me, except he that the Father draws."

The thief on the cross...just the sinner excercising faith alone, and God saved Him

The Ethiopian Eunuch...just the sinner excercising faith alone, and God saved Him

The tax collector in the temple...just a sinner excercising faith alone...justified.

Cornelius and the others with him...just sinners excercising faith alone...and God saved him.

This stuff is so basic. So foundational. And yet Romes Catholic brainwashers have so completly confused their victims that we have to go over it and over it and over it again and again and again.

God bless,

Mike

 

[youngmom4]

Baptism is the outward testimony of the inward commitment that has already been made. The way it's always been explained to me, it is much like wearing a wedding ring. I have two rings on my left finger which show that I am committed to my husband. They are an outward sign of the inward commitment I made the day we got married. If I remove my rings, I am no less committed to my husband than I am with them on. (Not that I do...I happen to believe when you're married, you wear your rings all the time for the specific purpose of showing others you are already committed.) In the same way, I made a commitment to Jesus before I was baptized. My baptism was an outward sign of the commitment I had already made to Christ in my heart. Had I died before being baptized (there were about nine months between my accepting Christ and when I got baptized), I would have been no less saved than I was the day I got baptized. However, if I put on a wedding ring before committing myself to my husband, it would not have made me married, or committed, to him. In the same way, if I were baptized without first committing myself to Christ, I would not be saved by the baptism. The commitment has to be made first.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"Come on DHK, you actually going to think that just because the Hindu’s view their water’s of baptism the same, as you say, to the Early Church, means that the Early Church stole the idea form them?"

C'mon, Agnus...surely you know that the Romish Church has been dragging paganism, idolatry and falsehood into its web of deceit a little bit at a time ever since the Catholic Church was invented 400 or so years after Christ.

God says...

"29 “When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land,

30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’

31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it."

The Catholic Churches attitude has been...

"When we go and displace them and dwell in their land, we will take their idolatries and "christianize" them, so as to increase our numbers and power. We will inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? We also will do likewise."

Thats a big part of how they have grown. A little pagansim here, a little goddess worship there, a little *magic" here, a bit of false mysticism there. I mean, they just dont care what they bring into this smorgasbord of falsehood.

Except one thing.

People practicing true biblical christianity. Grace alone. Faith alone. Christ alone. Scriptures alone. Freedom from oppression.

When that happens, no inclusiveness there. No, not at all.

Torture. Murder. Burnings at the stake.


Sadly,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Come on DHK, you actually going to think that just because the Hindu’s view their water’s of baptism the same, as you say, to the Early Church, means that the Early Church stole the idea form them?

Please DHK, every atheist worth his salt can show a pagan tradition comparable to our Christian faith…the Trinity, Virgin Birth, the Resurrection…ect-

Do you have a problem with the English language Agnus? It would appear so. There is a difference between a comparison and cause and effect. I used a simple comparison, and never once suggested a cause and effect relationship (because…therefore). I said that like the Hindus you believe that water washes away sin. That is a comparison, a simile. I could have used the Oneness Pentecostal or the Church of Christ as examples. They too both believe in the necessity of baptism as a requirement for salvation. It would have been a comparison. Let’s use one and see how your conclusion would have fit:

Oneness Pentecostal’s believe that baptism is necessary for salvation as do the Catholics.

And Agnus says:
“Come on DHK, you actually going to think that just because the Oneness’ view their water’s of baptism the same, as you say, to the Early Church, means that the Early Church stole the idea form them?

Please DHK, every atheist worth his salt can show a pagan tradition comparable to our Christian faith…the Trinity, Virgin Birth, the Resurrection…ect”

Yep, sure makes a lot of sense doesn’t it? It was a comparison.
It doesn’t change the fact however, that both Hindus and Catholics believe in the superstition that water washes away sin.

I could go on about metaphors also, but that is another topic for another thread. But I will ask the question: Why is “I am the door,” a metaphor, and “This is my body” not a metaphor?
I think it has to do with a deficiency in the English language. You ought to go to grammar school, not Orthodox school.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Youngmom4:However, if I put on a wedding ring before committing myself to my husband, it would not have made me married, or committed, to him. In the same way, if I were baptized without first committing myself to Christ, I would not be saved by the baptism. The commitment has to be made first.

HP: I like this illustration. Thanks for sharing it. :thumbs:

This clearly illustrates what a condition to salvation is and is not. If you can be saved without doing something, it cannot be considered a condition of salvation. Only something that can be thought of in the sense of 'not without which' can be considered a condition of salvation.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Pope John XXIII baptized a bell. Did that make it Biblical Agnus? You can't make an argument from silence.

...and this has what to do with the EASTERN Orthodox Church?
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[Agnus_Dei]

Here again we digress from the topic except that I am trying to point out the contrast between man "making stuff up" vs accepting the sola scriptura doctrines of the Bible.

Still you have yet to answer my questions. Where in the Bible do we see Christ instructing His Apostles to “lay hands” upon those that have already been baptized so that they may receive the Holy Spirit?

If you can’t point to me a verse, then this is clearly a Tradition that began in the Early Church. A Tradition that today, as faithful Orthodox Christians have held on to from the beginning.

So Bob, where the Apostles “making stuff up”?
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[Agnus_Dei]

Are the sins washed away by the Baptism?

Yes, as per Scripture...Challenge to you…list all the Bible verses which point to Baptism as a remission of sins…

or by the Blood of Jesus Christ?

Because the human race fell, the Incarnation is not only an act of love but an act of Salvation. Jesus Christ, by uniting humankind and God in His own person, reopened for us humans the path to union with God. In His own person Christ showed what the true 'likeness of God' is, and through His redeeming and victorious sacrifice. He set that likeness once again within our reach. Christ, the second Adam, came to earth and reversed the effects of the first Adam's disobedience.

Just because Eliyahu, Christ died on the cross, doesn't mean every sin of mankind is automactically forgiven with nothing to do on our part. If you believe that then you're a Universalist and a heretic. the likeness of God is within our reach, but we still have to do our part and reach for it...
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[Eliyahu]

Yes, as per Scripture...Challenge to you…list all the Bible verses which point to Baptism as a remission of sins…

Because the human race fell, the Incarnation is not only an act of love but an act of Salvation. Jesus Christ, by uniting humankind and God in His own person, reopened for us humans the path to union with God. In His own person Christ showed what the true 'likeness of God' is, and through His redeeming and victorious sacrifice. He set that likeness once again within our reach. Christ, the second Adam, came to earth and reversed the effects of the first Adam's disobedience.

Just because Eliyahu, Christ died on the cross, doesn't mean every sin of mankind is automactically forgiven with nothing to do on our part. If you believe that then you're a Universalist and a heretic. the likeness of God is within our reach, but we still have to do our part and reach for it...
-

What should be done more for the remission of the sins in addition to what Jesus has done at the Cross?

What the sinners like us can contribute to His Redemption which was absolutely complete at the Cross?

You don't believe in the Redemption which was completed at the Cross Once for ALL, do you?

Let me explain to you this way.

1) Sins were washed away at the Cross by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Once for ALL - 2000 years ago.

2) Media to link this Truth with the Individual person is the Belief, the Faith of the Believers' believing what Jesus has done at the Cross.
The media to effect the linkage between what Jesus did and the individual person is only Believing and Accepting what Jesus did. There is nothing more than that, and therefore it is GRACE. If we have to do anything to get it, then it is not by GRACE, but it should be called Reward or Wage.
Nobody can earn the Redemption because it is so precious and so difficult for any human being, but God gave such Redemption free to us, by His Grace. So, in this aspect, no one canm contribute enough to get the Redemption, the forgiveness of the sins. We can do NOTHING for the Salvation, or for the Redemption from the sins.
The media between Jesus Christ and man is just the Belief, the believing Faith. Faith and Believing in Jesus is the Bridge between Jesus Christ and the person, and the Faith comes by the Holy Spirit.

3. Baptism is the sacraments which shows, proves, declares, proclaim what was already beelieved and accepted by the person about the Redemptive Salvation at the Cross by Jesus Christ. Baptism doesn't wash away the sins of any person. If the Bible states it, it meant the Spiritual Baptism or the function of the Water Baptism as the shadow of the True Spiritual Baptism which is the same as the Faith, Belief in what Jesus has done at the Cross. Baptism doesn't save any person.

This is why Paul said this:
1 Cor 1:

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.



If the Baptism cause the Salvation or make anyone be born again, why did Paul say that Christ sent him not to baptize?

4) What can any human being contribute for the Salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: What should be done more for the remission of the sins in addition to what Jesus has done at the Cross?

HP: Man needs to fulfill the stated conditions.

Eliyahu: What the sinners like us can contribute to His Redemption which was absolutely complete at the Cross?

HP: Nothing we do ‘contributes’ to His redemption, but what we have to understand is to what did His redemption speak directly to. We were not redeemed on the cross, yet the means by which are redemption can be accomplished on God’s part was done. The redemption on the cross made the way possible, the bridge between a Holy God and His law and sinful man was built, but no actual transgression of our is forgiven UNTIL we fulfill the stated conditions in repentance and faith.

Eliyahu: You don't believe in the Redemption which was completed at the Cross Once for ALL, do you?

HP: I for one do, again as long as we understand what was ‘once for all’ accomplished. It was not ‘individual’ salvation accomplished once for all, but rather the atonement, the satisfaction to the law was indeed accomplished, making POSSIBLE the salvation of all mankind. The demands of the law have been met once for all, and all that remains is for us to avail ourselves to that atonement by the fulfilling of the conditions God has set forth for our individual salvation.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: Man needs to fulfill the stated conditions.



HP: Nothing we do ‘contributes’ to His redemption, but what we have to understand is to what did His redemption speak directly to. We were not redeemed on the cross, yet the means by which are redemption can be accomplished on God’s part was done. The redemption on the cross made the way possible, the bridge between a Holy God and His law and sinful man was built, but no actual transgression of our is forgiven UNTIL we fulfill the stated conditions in repentance and faith.



HP: I for one do, again as long as we understand what was ‘once for all’ accomplished. It was not ‘individual’ salvation accomplished once for all, but rather the atonement, the satisfaction to the law was indeed accomplished, making POSSIBLE the salvation of all mankind. The demands of the law have been met once for all, and all that remains is for us to avail ourselves to that atonement by the fulfilling of the conditions God has set forth for our individual salvation.

It is not surprising me that you are saying such CONDITIONAL Salvation.
For several years I stayed in such belief that one should do his or her heartfelt, utmost effort to humble down themselves to get the Salvation by the Holy Spirit. But even the Repentance and the Humble, Contrite minds are the results of the work of Holy Spirit.

Read the Bible here.
1 John 2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus has been the Propitiation for our sins, also for the sins of others. The only media is the Belief, there is nothing more than that, because everything needed for the Salvation has been done at the Cross. We should not unbelieve that Jesus has done everything for us, for the whole world.

Titus 2:11

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

So, the Salvation has been complete for ALL men.

There is NO condition left unfulfilled yet, since Jesus has died for us at the Cross.

Individual Salvation has been accomplished at the Cross ONCE For ALL.

As soon as anyone accept this Truth, he or she is saved.
If anyone reject this Truth, the Sin of rejection remains to be punished.

The Unbelievers will be punished not because they committed a lot of sins, but because they rejected the Remission of Sins by the Blood of Jesus.

Repeat,

The sins of Hitler and Stalin were forgiven at the Cross, but the reason why they go to the Hell is because they rejected such redemption of the sins, having trodden down the Blood of Jesus.

You misunderstand about the Redemption quite a lot, and that is a serious problem unless you correct it.


Remember this: Christianity is not believing in asking God to do anything, but believing in what God has done already thru His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, at the Cross.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

God has already delivered us from the Darkness ! What did we do?
We just accepted and believed it, then gave thanks to Him, and praised Him.

What did we do except believing ? Nooooooooooothing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: Read the Bible here.

HP: If Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the entire world as you descibe propitiation, and there are no conditions for man to fulfill, why are not all saved? Is the atonement less than able to succor that which you say it did, or are you to tell us that mans efforts in belief is what really saves us? If you are going to take the literal payment theory at face value as you obviously do, nothing, not belief or anything else can have the least effect on something already accomplished, now can it?

Eliyahu: Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

So, the Salvation has been complete for ALL men.

There is NO condition left unfulfilled yet, since Jesus has died for us at the Cross.


HP: What does this verse have to do with whether or not there are conditions to fulfill?

Eliyahu: Individual Salvation has been accomplished at the Cross ONCE For ALL.

HP: OK. If that is what you believe, at least be consistent in it. Nothing man does or can do can in any way affect salvation or determine who is and who is not saved. Your system is simply nothing more or less than deterministic fatalism. It all has been predetermined by God .

Eliyahu: As soon as anyone accept this Truth, he or she is saved.
If anyone reject this Truth, the Sin of rejection remains to be punished.

HP: I can assure you that one does NOT have to believe as you represent the atonement to be saved. To reject the literal payment theory is NOT to reject God’s salvation to mankind.

Eliyahu: The Unbelievers will be punished not because they committed a lot of sins, but because they rejected the Remission of Sins by the Blood of Jesus.

HP: Read the OT or the NT and tell me what is God’s contention with the sinner. List every verse you can find that states the sinners personal sins against God and man separate him from God. Then list the verse (s) that state that it is due to the rejection of Jesus Christ. Then try and add some harmonization to your findings.

Eliyahu: The sins of Hitler and Stalin were forgiven at the Cross, but the reason why they go to the Hell is because they rejected such redemption of the sins, having trodden down the Blood of Jesus

.

HP: That is an outright falsehood that cannot be proven or asserted by Scripture to say that the sins of unrepentant men or women were forgiven on the cross. God made a way for them to receive forgiveness, but unless they repent, they shall all likewise perish. Sins are not remitted for anyone until they fulfill the scriptural conditions. The way has been made, and the bridge has been built that make POSSIBLE the forgiveness of the sins of the entire world, buit it is not accomplishedin finality at the cross for any individual save the thief.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: Read the OT or the NT and tell me what is God’s contention with the sinner. List every verse you can find that states the sinners personal sins against God and man separate him from God. Then list the verse (s) that state that it is due to the rejection of Jesus Christ. Then try and add some harmonization to your findings.

You don't need to read the whole OT and NT to find out the Truth of the Salvation vs Sins.

Read here: Gal 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

All the sins came from the Unbelief of what has been done at the Cross. When we rely on the Holys Spirit and follow Him, we cease the sins and make the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

You don't know how to distinguish between the Mosaic Law and the Law of the Holy Spirit. None of the OT people were saved by keeping the Mosaic Law, but by the shadow of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ at the Cross which was illustrated by many animal sacrifices.

Lev 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein

In OT the priest offered the Sacrifice for the sins, then the sins were forgiven. Of course if the sinner refused to accept such Forgiveness, then there would have been no way to save such person.

The only thing that is needed for Salvation is BELIEVING !!! What else do you need for the Salvation?

HP: That is an outright falsehood that cannot be proven or asserted by Scripture to say that the sins of unrepentant men or women were forgiven on the cross. God made a way for them to receive forgiveness, but unless they repent, they shall all likewise perish. Sins are not remitted for anyone until they fulfill the scriptural conditions. The way has been made, and the bridge has been built that make POSSIBLE the forgiveness of the sins of the entire world, buit it is not accomplishedin finality at the cross for any individual save the thief.

So, are you claiming that the sins of Hitler and the sins of Stalin were left unforgiven at the Cross? Did Jesus leave those sins of the unbelievers unforgiven at the Cross?

If you were right, Jesus must die again every time when Unbelievers want to repent !

What condition must be fulfiilled other than BELIEVING ?

" They Repent" means that they Believe !

Believe what was done already at the Cross !


In your theology, there are something left for the Unbelievers to do for the Salvation, then you are claiming the Human Works !

The sins of Hitler were not forgiven at the Cross?

Jesus didn't leave any sins unforgiven at the Cross ! He did everything for the remission of all the human beings' sins.

As long as anyone does not believe what was done at the Cross, there remains the sin of Unbelieving, and therefore John 3 tells us this:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If you don't believe this, you have a big trouble with the Soteriorology.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: All the sins came from the Unbelief of what has been done at the Cross. When we rely on the Holys Spirit and follow Him, we cease the sins and make the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

HP: I would like to just believe you are not serious when you make such a comment. If what you are saying is true, the heathen, having never heard the gospel message, must be saints IYO.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Baptism is the outward testimony of the inward commitment that has already been made. The way it's always been explained to me, it is much like wearing a wedding ring. I have two rings on my left finger which show that I am committed to my husband. They are an outward sign of the inward commitment I made the day we got married. If I remove my rings, I am no less committed to my husband than I am with them on. (Not that I do...I happen to believe when you're married, you wear your rings all the time for the specific purpose of showing others you are already committed.) In the same way, I made a commitment to Jesus before I was baptized. My baptism was an outward sign of the commitment I had already made to Christ in my heart. Had I died before being baptized (there were about nine months between my accepting Christ and when I got baptized), I would have been no less saved than I was the day I got baptized. However, if I put on a wedding ring before committing myself to my husband, it would not have made me married, or committed, to him. In the same way, if I were baptized without first committing myself to Christ, I would not be saved by the baptism. The commitment has to be made first.

…and please don’t think the Orthodox Church preaches that baptism guarantees salvation, many Orthodox, Catholics, Church of Christ’s and even Baptists will find themselves being cast away at the Judgment, even though they were dunked in water.

An un-baptized adult Catechumen in the Orthodox Church can still die without baptism and still be in God’s good graces and be saved as the repented Catechumen seeks baptism. See the thief on the cross. If you ever read the Orthodox Baptismal rite, before he is baptized, the Catechumen will repent of his sins; accept Christ as Saviour, renounce Satan, recite the Creed and is thus Baptized by immersion in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the marriage analogy; I use the same analogy to prove OSAS as a false doctrine.

Oh and speaking of wedding bands, did you know that the Orthodox Church has always worn their bands on the right hand? Simply because it was scripturally the practice to wear the rings on the right hand; the authority and power completing the pledge of commitment. The power and authority comes from the right hand of God.

This practice was changed in the West once the Catholic Church latched on to the superstition that there was a vein that goes from the left hand directly to the heart and thus the ring finger was changed from the right to the left and since Protestantism is the egg the West laid, the practice continued.
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[Agnus_Dei]

The Catholic cult brainwashes her victims with that very lie, Agnus.

I take it you’re linking me to the Western Church. Let it be known for the record, I’m not attending the Western Church known as the Roman Catholic Church. I have been attending an Antiochian Orthodox Church.

We are NOT saved by any counterfiet shelter of any counterfeit church. We are not even saved by the true church. The true church here on earth is nothing more than all of the born again people on earth. Nothing more. And we...the church...do not save anyone.

We are saved by a person, Agnus. That person is Jesus Christ. He is...

Our savior
Our shelter
Our peace
Our life
Our source of power
Our source of truth
Our EVERYTHING

He saves His people, Agnus. He personally saves each one individually. There is no other way to be saved but individually by Christ Himself. The only people involved are the sinner, the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But of course D28guy, no one comes to the Father except through Christ Jesus. Just b/c Christ was crucified doesn’t mean all will be saved. If you encounter a lost soul, do you hand him a bible and let Sola Scriptura do its job? Do you a fallible man try and explain salvation to him or should you lead the individual to the “pillar and foundation of Truth” which is the Church of the living God?

The last thing I want is someone’s soul on my hands, I’ll lead him to Christ’s Church.

The thief on the cross...just the sinner excercising faith alone, and God saved Him

The Ethiopian Eunuch...just the sinner excercising faith alone, and God saved Him

The tax collector in the temple...just a sinner excercising faith alone...justified.

Cornelius and the others with him...just sinners excercising faith alone...and God saved him.

The class is still waiting for that one ellusive verse...faith alone...
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