The Doctrine of Total Depravity Scripturally Opened and Explained

Frogman · Apr 6, 2003

Anyone interested in following a study of the Scriptural position of the Total Depravity of man can find this at the url found just after this entry.

This is a study that I have entered into. I believe because of the length this study shall involve that it will be ignored if posted here. I mean to refrain from colloquialisms or "cliches" to simply out discuss any of the brethren who may enter the discussion.

As the various parts of this study is published, we may return here to this thread to discuss particular excerpts if any so desire, or to address questions, even to make suggestions upon the study. Thankfully, I am full aware of my own finiteness and welcome any suggestions from any when those suggestions have in their purpose to edify the children of God and to Glorify God and Jesus Christ.

All arguments with design for improvement upon my own thoughts, without the possiblity of improvement upon Scripture being entertained, will be considered and appreciated. If these are rejected, the purpose of the rejection will be given only from a Biblical basis, non other will, or should be offered nor received.

I hope we each can grow in the knowledge of the Grace of God and most especially that the Lord of Glory receive the praise and honor due only Him.

Pray with me for my humble approach to this topic.

God Bless all.

Bro. Dallas Eaton II

The link to the study (Introduction) is given below:

web page

[ June 18, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

KenH · Apr 6, 2003

Sounds good, Brother Dallas.

God bless you.

Frogman · Apr 6, 2003

Looking forward to slurs, slanders, liables, er, I mean comments, suggestions, and edifying discussion.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Brother Dallas... Looking forward to slurs, slanders, liables... Isn't that definate proof of total depravity ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

[ April 06, 2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

tyndale1946 · Apr 6, 2003

Sorry Brother Dallas... I blew it!... I was meaning to quote you instead of editing you... Is there a rock I can crawl under ... A cave I can hide in ... So you will all know I'm human just like everyone else... Forgive me Brother Dallas... Its been a long day!... Look for a PM soon... Brother Glen

Frogman · Apr 6, 2003

That's fine Bro.Glen, what is it we sing? "Hide me, O thou Rock of Ages" You know the place of refuge.

Thanks for the reply.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Frogman · Jun 18, 2003

Thought I would resurrect this in a sense, to let you brethren know I have been working on a better web-site and am currently working on the second part of the study found there.

The link is as follows:

web page

In bringing this back to our remembrance I want to reopen with a statement from John Gill on the passages under consideration, I do this because I find in studying this that there is perhaps little that I can add to what Gill has said.

1Jo 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death to life,.... From a death in sin, a moral or spiritual death; which lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit; in an alienation from the life of God; in a loss of the image of God, of righteousness, holiness, and knowledge, in which man was created; in a privation of all true sense of sin, and in a servitude to it, which is unto death, and is no other than death: and from a legal death, or death in a legal sense, under the sentence of which all men are, as considered in Adam; and which God's elect are sensible of, when convinced by the Spirit of God, and are in their own apprehension as dead men. Now in regeneration, which is a quickening of sinners dead in sin, a resurrection of them from the dead, the people of God pass from this death of sin, and the law, to a life of sanctification, having principles of grace and life implanted in them; and to a life of justification, and of faith on Christ, as the Lord their righteousness; and to a life of communion with Christ; and to such a life as is to the glory of Christ; and to a right to eternal life. And this passing from the one to the other is not of themselves, it is not their own act; no man can quicken himself, or raise himself from the dead; in this men are passive: and so the words are rendered in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, "we know that we are translated"; that is, by God the Father, who delivers from the power of darkness, and death, and translates into the kingdom of his dear Son, which is a state of light and life; or by Christ, who is the resurrection and the life, who is the author of the resurrection from the death of sin to a life of grace; or by the Spirit of life from Christ, by whom souls are quickened, and of whom they are born again: and this passage from death to life, or regeneration, is a thing that may be, and is known by the regenerate man; who, as he knows surely, that whereas he was blind he now sees, so that whereas he was dead in sin, he is now alive; and among other things it may be known by this,

because we love the brethren: this is not the cause of passing from death to life, but the effect of it, and so an evidence of it, or that by which it is known; brotherly love being what the saints are taught of God in regeneration, and is a fruit of the Spirit of God, and is what true faith works by, and is what shows itself as soon as anything in a regenerate man; nor can anyone love the saints, as such, as brethren in Christ, unless he is born again; a man may indeed love a saint, as a natural relative, as a good neighbour, and because he has done him some good offices, and because of some excellent qualities in him, as a man of learning, sense, candour, civility, &c. though he has not the grace of God; but to love him as a child of God, a member of Christ, and because he has his image stamped on him, no man can do this, unless he has received the grace of God; so that this is a certain evidence of it:

he that loveth not his brother, abideth in death; in the death of sin, in a state of nature and unregeneracy; under the sentence of condemnation and death; and he is liable to eternal death, which is the wages of sin, under the power of which such a manifestly is. This is said to deter from hatred, as also what follows.
Click to expand...

[Gill]

As for my self I think Gill is sometimes difficult to read because he usually begins by showing what he is disproving and what the scripture does not mean and then works his way to what is meant. I think here is a place that he plainly declares the meaning of this passage.

Just so you brethren will know, I view the KJV to be inspired of God.

I believe the Hebrew and the Greek are inspired languages and that the translation of the KJ is inspired as well. What of the seeming discrepancies? There is, I believe an explanation.

Well, for what that is worth, the topic is the total depravity of man {though this does certainly apply to the explanation of the supposed discrepancies of the KJV}.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

Johnv · Jun 18, 2003

I think it's important to understand what is mean by total depravity. Some understand it to be a complete inability to do anything good. That concept is neither touted by John Calvin, nor is it biblical.

Rather, total depravity is the complete inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan.

Frogman · Jun 19, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
I think it's important to understand what is mean by total depravity. Some understand it to be a complete inability to do anything good. That concept is neither touted by John Calvin, nor is it biblical.

Rather, total depravity is the complete inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan.
Click to expand...

I don't have any difficulty in understanding this. This as a definition of 'total depravity' still eliminates any 'good' which man can offer to God, even if the individual is morally good.

Agreed?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

Matt. 27.25

John Gilmore · Jun 19, 2003

Total depravity means that man, in his natural state, is neither free to do good and omit evil or free to do evil and omit good. His will is in total bondage to Satan.

tyndale1946 · Jun 19, 2003

So Brethren what does Totally Depravity really mean... When God cursed Adam and Eve after they had disobeyed him and sinned?... What actually was meant by God's words and curse... Dying thou shalt die?... And if man is not Totally Depraved then how dead is he really?... Was his spirit not touched as some claim when God passed the curse and what was cursed exactly... Was the whole man Adam and Eve cursed and all their offspring until time shall be no more or just part of them?... If it was part of them then which part... Just their flesh which will also die?

What are you going to do with passages that deal with the dead in their condition... How dead are they... How dead are you in tresspasses and in sin that you need to be quickened?... Why the quickening if there is a spark of good there?... Just how sinful and depraved is the Adam man... The Bible says we are Adam multiplied... Any you brethren want to break out your calculators and multiply the sins from Adam until this generation or until Christ comes again to see your Total Depravity.

So how dead are we that the Son of God would leave his home in glory by his loving Fathers side to die and agonizing bloody crucified death on a roman cross 2,000 years ago?... How Totally Depraved are we and for those that don't believe it like some on here... Well you are entitled to your opinion... To each his own... but before you throw the baby out with the bath water... Be as a burean and search the scriptures... In my Bible Jesus Christ died for the ungodly and sinners.

His people given to him from the Father before the foundation of the world to save because they were Totally Depraved... If not why did he come and die to give us a chance for Salvation?... NOT IN MY BIBLE... NOT IN MY CHURCH... NOT IN MY BELIEF!... MAN IS DEAD!... Unable to help himself... DEAD!... Unable to call on God until God changes his cold and stony heart into a heart of flesh... DEAD!... Unable to attain or obtain anything of the spiritual seeing he is spiritually discerned... DEAD... To anything GODLY!... DEAD... To anything GOOD!... DEAD... BODY... SOUL... and SPIRIT!... DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!... TOTALLY DEPRAVED!... Just like the Bible teaches it!... Just like this Primitive Baptist... BELIEVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Brother Glen

Johnv · Jun 19, 2003

I don't have any difficulty in understanding this. This as a definition of 'total depravity' still eliminates any 'good' which man can offer to God, even if the individual is morally good.

By defenition, a man without a relationship with God will not offer any good up to God. So I'd be inclined to agree with your statement.

Johnv · Jun 19, 2003

tyndale, the problem with your definition of total depravity is that it completely negates the fact that we in Gen1 are created in God's image, and created "very good". Our sinful nature has lead us to depravity, but if it is total, then that means that sin is as powerful as God, and I simply don't believe that. Nothing is more powerful that God, not even Satan.

That's why I stated earlier that it's important to understand what is meant by total depravity. You understand it to be a complete inability to do anything good, but that concept is neither touted by John Calvin, nor is it biblical.

Rather, total depravity is the complete inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan.

Frogman · Jun 19, 2003

JohnV,

I agree that men are sometimes able to possess what we in society do identify as morals. But, the Bible does teach without a doubt that man is dead in trespasses and sin.

As I have said I believe that 1 John 3.14 is only one of the places this is taught.

1 John 3:14 ¶We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Click to expand...

Is this passage not plain?

Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt.27.25

Johnv · Jun 19, 2003

1 John 3 has nothing to do with the Calvinistic view of Total Depravity. 1 John 3 is a discourse on how we whould love each other:

11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Frogman · Jun 19, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
1 John 3 has nothing to do with the Calvinistic view of Total Depravity. 1 John 3 is a discourse on how we whould love each other:

11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
Click to expand...

14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

This has nothing to do with having passed from death to life?

I do disagree with you on this.

The passage specifically says that because we love the brethren (those in Christ) then we know we have passed from death to life, and it specifically says that whoever does not love the brethren remains in that first position which is not a total inability, but simply death.

That is plain brother.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 27.25

Aki · Jun 19, 2003

let's take it then - total depravity according to calvinism. when does this start? at birth.

with this, man will be condemned. no question about that.

but is he responsible for his own condemnation or depravity? let's take it. each one was represented by Adam in a federal manner, which got each one sin in Adam, or imputed with Adam's sin. also, each one acquired the sin nature. let's accept it then. nobody, with total depravity, would be "inclined to God".

only let us be clear that a born child never had a choice to be condemned. he did not choose to be. and though God would still be just if He does not elect that child to salvation, let it be clear that that child was never tested with his volition to become totally depraved.

Frogman · Jun 20, 2003

Hello Aki,

Thanks for the post. I would bring up in answer to what I think is your question concerning the 'choice' of babies to actually commit sin, the fact that Adam and Eve had no child at the time of the fall, I believe that if they did have children, then Adam would not have been the federal head of the human race, but that the question you present would be valid. This would mean then that there would have been Adam who chose to join the woman in the sin against God, but that there would have been the child (in this case first Cain, then obviously Able) each of these would then have come to the point in their lives when they too would have been presented with the 'choice' to sin or not to sin.

But God hath concluded all as such. The scripture I beleive answer the question you are presenting are following:

Genesis 3:22 ¶And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Genesis 4:1 ¶And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Click to expand...

Still Scripture teaches that man passes from the position of death unto life, and if not, then he remains (abideth) in death.

Scripture also says in another place this distinction that Christ will judge the quick and the dead (II Tim)

2 Timothy 4:1 ¶I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Click to expand...

and again at

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Click to expand...

God Bless
bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 27.25

Aki · Jun 20, 2003

hi Frogman

first, you should know that i realize that your intention in starting this thread is not merely to debate the non-calvinists, but to spread the Word of God.

to get to the issue, i have a couple of comments to your response:

1. i don't think i can readily accept the thought that should Cain and Abel had been born prior to Adam's disobedience, then those two offsprings would not be affected and will have to decide to eat of the fruit themselves when tempted. this is because it is equally valid to say that God may still impute unto the them their father's sin, since Adam remains the federal head of the human race by the time they are born.

2. i'm not sure whether you agree or not to my first reply above, when i said that a born child was never tested of his volition to become totally depraved. nevertheless, with your reply, that point remains. each born child gets totally depraved prior to any disobedience nor even the ability to make a decision. in other words, he is not personally responsible for his own depravity.

Frogman · Jun 20, 2003

I believe I must have misunderstood your statement earlier.

Now let me attempt to clarify it. I believe all individuals are born totally depraved. Is this what you are saying?

God Bless
Bro.Dallas Eaton
Matt. 27.25

Aki · Jun 20, 2003

yes, that's it. and the emphasis is that they need not have done anything to get depraved and condemned. their volition is never an issue for their condemnation.

they were:

1. imputed of Adam's sin/guilt by God that got them condemned; and

2. seminally transmitted of the sin nature by their parents that got them commit personal sins.

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