The Early Atonement View

[JonC]

I didn't notice the explosion, but I haven't read all the posts either. Obviously the matter is heart-felt or you wouldn't stand by it. I admire the standing by the stuff whether right or wrong!

Jon, the Scripture is not clear on all matters, in fact it's just the opposite. What we desperately need to know from God is clear though.

With the lesser matters for our information we have to read between the lines, that can be a dangerous endeavor for us. In some cases it can lead to a place where we don't want to go.

I agree PSA is not found clearly written in Scripture, and in my dangerous endeavors to read between the lines I can plainly see the concept of it.

The early Christians were doing the same reading between the lines as we are doing, and I believe the Reformers such as Calvin came as close to a correct reading between the lines that I have seen.

Lol....it was an EXPLOSION of holy knowledge.

I meant post # 31

I wanted to make sure it made sense to you (not that you adopt it, but that you understand it) before continuing.

The reason is there are significant implication of viewing us as cleansed by Christ's blood (literally) rather than His blood paying a sin debt to God.

A lot of this deals with how we are fitted, by Christ's blood shed for us, for the kingdom beginning in this life and culminating in the next ("refined", "moving from glory to glory") and the nature of the church as Christ's body towards its members (exhaulting, discipline, discipling, etc).

Our views of the Atonement, naturally, has far reaching implications.

I am not saying that PSA will deny these implications, but the focus and source is different.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol....it was an EXPLOSION of holy knowledge.

I meant post # 31

I wanted to make sure it made sense to you (not that you adopt it, but that you understand it) before continuing.

The reason is there are significant implication of viewing us as cleansed by Christ's blood (literally) rather than His blood paying a sin debt to God.

A lot of this deals with how we are fitted, by Christ's blood shed for us, for the kingdom beginning in this life and culminating in the next ("refined", "moving from glory to glory") and the nature of the church as Christ's body towards its members (exhaulting, discipline, discipling, etc).

Our views of the Atonement, naturally, has far reaching implications.

I am not saying that PSA will deny these implications, but the focus and source is different.

LOL, ok, I was thinking of a different kind of explosion.

Yes, I read that and it's loaded with knowledge. More than I can muster up in one post.

I still see the wrath of a Holy God placed on the Sin Sacrifice that was made sin to take my place.

I'm pretty sure we will never agree on this, but you keep trying, lol.

 

[JonC]

LOL, ok, I was thinking of a different kind of explosion.

Yes, I read that and it's loaded with knowledge. More than I can muster up in one post.

I still see the wrath of a Holy God placed on the Sin Sacrifice that was made sin to take my place.

I'm pretty sure we will never agree on this, but you keep trying, lol.

Lol....I am really not trying to change your mind (not looking for agreement, but hoping we can understand one another).

I think that Christians can learn from each other even if they never agree on these issues. Maybe you can take something of what I believe and apply that under your belief (and vice versa).

For me, I am sure that I will never again view Jesus as suffering to pay my sin debt to God. I cannot but see sin as a much deeper problem (and a greater offense to God) than I once did.

So I agree we will never agree (except maybe in agreeing we will never agree). But we do not have to agree.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol....I am really not trying to change your mind (not looking for agreement, but hoping we can understand one another).

I think that Christians can learn from each other even if they never agree on these issues. Maybe you can take something of what I believe and apply that under your belief (and vice versa).

For me, I am sure that I will never again view Jesus as suffering to pay my sin debt to God. I cannot but see sin as a much deeper problem (and a greater offense to God) than I once did.

So I agree we will never agree (except maybe in agreeing we will never agree). But we do not have to agree.

We agree on what it takes to enter His Kingdom.

I can afford to be wrong on the details of the atonement.

But I don't think I am, lol.

 

[JonC]

We agree on what it takes to enter His Kingdom.

I can afford to be wrong on the details of the atonement.

But I don't think I am, lol.

Well...it would be horrible if either of us held our beliefs thinking we were wrong.

I think the main difference - or one difference - may be in what we think had to be accomplished in order for us to be righteous.

I believe that Christ suffered Satan's wrath against us (which is ultimately his wrath against God) Our suffering under Satan is just. We deserve it. He was our master. But Christ's suffering led to the creation of a new type of humanity. So although we die physically because of sin we are freed from its bond.

What we are talking about, though, is God's justice (we are appointed to die once, but then God judges us).

I view Christ's blood as cleansing us from all unrighteous rather than paying a debt via His life in us (making us a new creation).

I look at this kinda like one refines metal. In this life we, who have Christ in us, are like gold mixed with worthless metal. During this life we are "moving from glory to glory", ever becoming more like Christ, that gold in us being purified.

Some will escape as one who escapes a fire - only with their life. But others will have been refined to a greater extent. We will not be completely refined in this life, but at Judgment all that will be left is what is in Christ's image.

Our forgiveness, under this view, is Christ Himself rather than a debt paid. We are literally cleansed by His blood from all unrighteous. We repent (die to a sin) and increase in Hus image. The Spirit convicts us of another.

 

[Charlie24]

Well...it would be horrible if either of us held our beliefs thinking we were wrong.

I think the main difference - or one difference - may be in what we think had to be accomplished in order for us to be righteous.

I believe that Christ suffered Satan's wrath against us (which is ultimately his wrath against God) Our suffering under Satan is just. We deserve it. He was our master. But Christ's suffering led to the creation of a new type of humanity. So although we die physically because of sin we are freed from its bond.

What we are talking about, though, is God's justice (we are appointed to die once, but then God judges us).

I view Christ's blood as cleansing us from all unrighteous rather than paying a debt via His life in us (making us a new creation).

I look at this kinda like one refines metal. In this life we, who have Christ in us, are like gold mixed with worthless metal. During this life we are "moving from glory to glory", ever becoming more like Christ, that gold in us being purified.

Some will escape as one who escapes a fire - only with their life. But others will have been refined to a greater extent. We will not be completely refined in this life, but at Judgment all that will be left is what is in Christ's image.

Our forgiveness, under this view, is Christ Himself rather than a debt paid. We are literally cleansed by His blood from all unrighteous. We repent (die to a sin) and increase in Hus image. The Spirit convicts us of another.

God said in the Law "it is the blood that atones for the soul." It was the blood of an innocent animal but represented the Blood of Christ.

That tells me God demands the blood of man for his sin, in other words death.

Man had no way out with God but death for his sin.

To keep from destroying mankind He provided a replacement for man, conceived by the Spirit and born of a woman under the Law.

This man lived a perfect life without sinning for one purpose, to take the place of sinful man and pay his sin debt, making it possible for man to be redeemed. There was no other way for man to survive his sin against God.

We can rest assured if there had been another way God would not have called on His Son to give up His life for us.

 

[JonC]

God said in the Law "it is the blood that atones for the soul." It was the blood of an innocent animal but represented the Blood of Christ.

That tells me God demands the blood of man for his sin, in other words death.

Man had no way out with God but death for his sin.

To keep from destroying mankind He provided a replacement for man, conceived by the Spirit and born of a woman under the Law.

This man lived a perfect life without sinning for one purpose, to take the place of sinful man and pay his sin debt, making it possible for man to be redeemed.There was no other way for man to survive his sin against God.

We can rest assured if there had been another way God would not have called on His Son to give up His life for us.

I agree with the above except ", to take the place of sinful man and pay his sin debt, making it possible for man to be redeemed.There was no other way for man to survive his sin against God.".

I do not believe a payable "sin debt" ever existed. I believe that the sinner must die. No way out. But "although we die so shall we live".

I view Christ's blood as "cleansing us from all unrighteous" by giving a way for man to "die to the flesh" (the guilty "old self") and be made alive in Christ, made "alive in the Spirit" (a new creation in Christ, righteous, perfect, sinless).

I simply believe that our sin against God is too serious to be remedied by collecting a debt. The only way, IMHO, is by an act of re-creation. The "flesh" has to die.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree with the above except ", to take the place of sinful man and pay his sin debt, making it possible for man to be redeemed.There was no other way for man to survive his sin against God.".

I do not believe a payable "sin debt" ever existed. I believe that the sinner must die. No way out. But "although we die so shall we live".

I view Christ's blood as "cleansing us from all unrighteous" by giving a way for man to "die to the flesh" (the guilty "old self") and be made alive in Christ, made "alive in the Spirit" (a new creation in Christ, righteous, perfect, sinless).

I simply believe that our sin against God is too evil to be remedied by collecting a debt. The only way, IMHO, is by an act of re-creation.

God could speak the universe into existence, why do you think He didn't speak the sin of man away in the same fashion?

Did His Laws before the foundation of the world allow for sin to be spoken away?

 

[JonC]

God could speak the universe into existence, why do you think He didn't speak the sin of man away in the same fashion?

Did His Laws before the foundation of the world allow for sin to be spoken away?

I think it is not a matter of ability but of righteousness. God's justice, IMHO, is constant. His wrath is against the wicked. So paying a price for man's sins would make God's words invalid.

But having the wicked die to wickedness and be made new creations in Christ would meet the standard of divine justice.

 

[Charlie24]

I think it is not a matter of ability but of righteousness. God's justice, IMHO, is constant. His wrath is against the wicked. So paying a price for man's sins would make God's words invalid.

But having the wicked die to wickedness and be made new creations in Christ would meet the standard of divine justice.

God cannot speak away the free will of man to sin! He freely gave free will to Adam and Eve and they used it to sin.

God knew this would happen, but that sin comes with a price, The Law of Sin and Death.

In order to save man from his sin, God created another Law according to His plan for man to be redeemed, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. These are the most powerful laws in the universe.

God holds the sinner to death for his sin, not only a physical death, but a spiritual death also, eternal separation from God.

God demands the payment for sin, but man can't pay. So God already has the plan in place for man to escape his sin by The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. He took the payment from His substitute, The Word/ Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

God cannot speak away the free will of man to sin! He freely gave free will to Adam and Eve and they used it to sin.

God knew this would happen, but that sin comes with a price, The Law of Sin and Death.

In order to save man from his sin, God created another Law according to His plan for man to be redeemed, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. These are the most powerful laws in the universe.

God holds the sinner to death for his sin, not only a physical death, but a spiritual death also, eternal separation from God.

God demands the payment for sin, but man can't pay. So God already has the plan in place for man to escape his sin by The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. He took the payment from His substitute, The Word/ Jesus Christ.

We believe a lot of the same things.

I just cannot return to believing that our "old self" can be made right with God by God punishing Jesus in its place. I believe the "old self" (the "flesh") has to die, has to be "crucified with Christ" and a "new self" be created that is righteous and in the image of Christ.

Paying the "sin debt" (if there is such a thing) would not justify the wicked.

God does not speak away our sin. Nor does He accept a payment for our sins. He demands we be made holy.

 

[Charlie24]

We believe a lot of the sane things.

I just cannot return to believing that our "old self" can be made right with God by God punishing Jesus in its place. I believe the "old self" (the "flesh") has to die, has to be "crucified with Christ" and a "new self" be created that is righteous and in the image of Christ.

Paying the "sin debt" (if there is such a thing) would not justify the wicked.

Ok, Brother, we have no problem! I just hope you can have an idea of why I do stand with PSA.

And if you can't, we are still good!

 

[JonC]

Ok, Brother, we have no problem! I just hope you can have an idea of why I do stand with PSA.

And if you can't, we are still good!

I do (like I said, at one time that was my position). I just wanted you to understand why I hold mine as well.

If I have to be a heretic at least you know why and that I am in good company. We can discuss this with better understanding in the next life.


For now...do you believe that, at Judgment, we will have been "made new creations in Christ", "conformed to His image" or do you believe we will be the same men we are now and that way of speach pointing to God considering us as righteous as our debt was paid?

 

[Charlie24]

I do (like I said, at one time that was my position). I just wanted you to understand why I hold mine as well.

If I have to be a heretic at least you know why and that I am in good company. We can discuss this with better understanding in the next life.


For now...do you believe that, at Judgment, we will have been "made new creations in Christ", "conformed to His image" or do you believe we will be the same men we are now and that way of speach pointing to God considering us as righteous as our debt was paid?

We won't be the same as we are now after the judgment is over.

We will be like Christ and the thought of sin will be like it was in the Garden in the beginning before sin came into the world, there will be none.

You and I will be on our knees casting our many crowns at the feet of Christ praising Him for saving us.

Or at least I hope we will have many crowns to cast.

And you're not a heretic, you're a born-again believer in Christ, and joint-heir of the Kingdom.

 

[easternstar]

The word 'heretic' has come to mean an error or a damnable viewpoint, whereas it originally meant simply a minority view. The state churches killed people for such 'heresy'. Thankfully that's in the past.

 

[Charlie24]

The word 'heretic' has come to mean an error or a damnable viewpoint, whereas it originally meant simply a minority view. The state churches killed people for such 'heresy'. Thankfully that's in the past.

That was back when Satan carried a pitchfork.

 

[JonC]

That was back when Satan carried a pitchfork.

I'm not so sure. Physically...maybe. But I see the spirit of hatred towards other Christians because of disagreements.

 

[JonC]

We won't be the same as we are now after the judgment is over.

We will be like Christ and the thought of sin will be like it was in the Garden in the beginning before sin came into the world, there will be none.

You and I will be on our knees casting our many crowns at the feet of Christ praising Him for saving us.

Or at least I hope we will have many crowns to cast.

And you're not a heretic, you're a born-again believer in Christ, and joint-heir of the Kingdom.

How does God punishing Jesus for our sins to pay our sin debt make us like Christ?

That is what I am not understanding about your position.

 

[JonC]

@Charlie24

I am missing something in understanding your position.

As @DaveXR650 (or, maybe it was one of his teammates) pointed out several times, I am not intelligent. I have not objected to that charge. I am not a smart man, but I know what love is (borrowing from Forrest Gump as I am in Savannah GA today).

So I am going to turn our disagreement into a story. Maybe it will help me understand what I am missing of your view.


My Story

Wicked Bob has a lot of sin. He is enslaved, a prisoner to a master. His master has rights over him because of his sin. And his master will kill him, his sin producing his death. He will face the same fate as his master. His master has a right over the sons of Adam because if their sin.

God became a human being, the "Son of Adam" to rescue the sons of Adam. He bore Adam's sins and submitted Himself to their fate. Their master killed Him, as it is appointed to all man to die. But God judged Him as righteous. He died in the body and was made alive. The first Adam was made a living soul, the Second a life giving Spirit.

Wicked Bob believes. Jesus gives him life, puts His own spirit in Bob. This makes Good Bob.

Good Bob wrestles with and kills Wicked Bob daily. Over time Good Bob increases and Wicked Bob decreases. Christ's blood cleanses from all unrighteous.

One day Bob dies. For some reason they out "Robert" on his tombstone.

God raises Good Bob. Good Bob looks around and Wicked Bob is gone. God looks at Good Bob. Good Bob has never committed a sin. Good Bob is righteous. He is in the image of God's Son who is the Firstborn with Good Bob as His brother.


Your Story

Wicked Bob has a lot of sins. God puts those sins on Jesus and punished Jesus for Wicked Bob's sins.

This pays Wicked Bob's sin debt.

What I do not get.....

Wicked Bob now has his sin debt paid in full. But Wicked Bob still cannot enter God's kingdom. Although his sin debt has been collected, Wicked Bob is still wicked. Although Wicked Bob's bill has been paid God's wrath is still on Wicked Bob.