The Early Atonement View

[JonC]

Interesting story you have there, Jon!

It reminds me of the main theme in a Book I have sitting here on my desk, the One that says Holy Bible.

Wicked Bob was bought with a price that he had no control of, he was bought by mercy and grace, something he didn't deserve, but God had a special interest in Bob being His greatest creation. Bob is worth more to God that all of His other creations put together.

Bob couldn't do anything about his great grandfather Adam using his free will to disobey God, and God in His mercy recognizes this, but at the same time the Law of Sin and Death must be upheld or God is a liar. That Law was in effect when He said to Adam, "the day you eat of this tree you shall surly die."

Before the foundation of the world God knew all of this would sit in Bob's lap. Bob through no fault of his own is now in as desperate situation with sin inevitable inherited from his great grandfather, Adam. "Whereby one man has sinned, all have sinned."

The great mistake of Calvin was his view of God's sovereignty. There are some things God cannot do according to the Laws He created before the foundation of the world. He is bound to them, or found a liar.

Through man's God-given gift of free will, man has completely destroyed himself and must be destroyed according to God's Law, UNLESS, God can find a way around the very Laws He placed into existence.

Is man really worth all the trouble and sacrifice that God must make to preserve His greatest creation? Obviously it is worth it to Him! So in His great mercy and grace that no man can understand, He devised a plan for "whosoever will" to survive this terrible thing man has brought on all of God's creation, the curse of sin.

Satan lied to man and brought out the lust of man who has free will to choose, but the man made the ultimate choice to seek after that lust by his own free will. Man is now a slave and is owned by Satan.

Did Satan have anything to do with the sacrifice God would make to preserve "whosoever will?" I think not!

The price God would pay in His plan was the offering up to the death of His innocent Son as a sacrifice for our sins. But there's a condition that must be met by God in order to benefit from this sacrifice. We must believe in the sacrifice, specifically what Paul told us we must believe.

For Bob who has chosen to believe in this sacrifice, he is in debt to God for the great sacrifice God has offered. All the sins of the world, past present, and future, including Bob's have been place on God's great sacrifice, and Bob has benefited greatly from this sacrifice by believing in it.

Bob is now declared righteous before God, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, all his sins, past, present and future have been placed on the Great Sacrifice. His future sins cannot be ignored or tossed to the side, God's Law forbids it. The Law of Sin and Death still abides on sin.

But the wrath of God on such sin of the believer is pardoned by His grace through faith, His plan of the "just for the unjust." All of it being placed on the innocent Sacrifice that never sinned, but was "made sin for us."

Paul tells us in Rom. 6, shall we continue to sin that grace may abound, God forbid, says Paul,

The Grace of God to forgive the sins of the Believer is not a license to sin. Those sins are not ignored they are placed on Christ by Law through His becoming sin for us.

Lol....I thought you would like the story.

So the main difference is you view God pardoned us (kind of, He still collected the debt) where I believe God remade us, that rather than a pardon for sins Christ's blood cleanses from all unrighteousness.


How do you distinguish man experiencing the wages of sin (the sin produced by death, the death over which is Satan's power, the death we are appointed to die once) and the judgment of God that follows?

I ask because it seems like you are blending them together (instead of it being appointed man once to die and then the judgment it sounds like just the judgment).

 

[JonC]

We won't be the same as we are now after the judgment is over.

We will be like Christ and the thought of sin will be like it was in the Garden in the beginning before sin came into the world, there will be none.

You and I will be on our knees casting our many crowns at the feet of Christ praising Him for saving us.

Or at least I hope we will have many crowns to cast.

And you're not a heretic, you're a born-again believer in Christ, and joint-heir of the Kingdom.

I agree with the above. But I believe this re-creation has started, that we are being fitted for the kingdom in this life (moving from glory to glory).

 

[Charlie24]

Lol....I thought you would like the story.

So the main difference is you view God pardoned us (kind of, He still collected the debt) where I believe God remade us, that rather than a pardon for sins Christ's blood cleanses from all unrighteousness.


How do you distinguish man experiencing the wages of sin (the sin produced by death, the death over which is Satan's power, the death we are appointed to die once) and the judgment of God that follows?

I ask because it seems like you are blending them together (instead of it being appointed man once to die and then the judgment it sounds like just the judgment).

Yes, who doesn't like the story of God's mercy on mankind?

He pardoned us and remade us according to His plan of Redemption.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, this subject is very complex and difficult to nail down.

I'm assuming you're asking in the general sense why man must die, but knowing JonC, lol, he will correct me. I have no doubt of that!

Man appointed to die physically is decreed by the Law of God. It's all a part of His perfect plan.

God created man to live forever in the flesh, and man who believes will live in the flesh forever, the same body of flesh our Lord rose from the dead with.

Man sinned and disobeyed God, so to live in the flesh forever God has to save spirit, soul, and the flesh of man from sin.

That's done through the resurrection where man dies to sin in the flesh but is remade by the power of God to live in the flesh forever in his new body of flesh free from sin.

Our Lord taught his in the spiritual sense, that is, dying to the flesh in our everyday life in presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree with the above. But I believe this re-creation has started, that we are being fitted for the kingdom in this life (moving from glory to glory).

For sure we are being conformed in the image of Christ through the progressive sanctification of the Spirit.

For those who will allow it to take place. I speak of degrees, some allowing more correction by the Spirit to be conformed than others.

 

[JonC]

Yes, who doesn't like the story of God's mercy on mankind?

He pardoned us and remade us according to His plan of Redemption.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, this subject is very complex and difficult to nail down.

I'm assuming you're asking in the general sense why man must die, but knowing JonC, lol, he will correct me. I have no doubt of that!

Man appointed to die physically is decreed by the Law of God. It's all a part of His perfect plan.

God created man to live forever in the flesh, and man who believes will live in the flesh forever, the same body of flesh our Lord rose from the dead with.

Man sinned and disobeyed God, so to live in the flesh forever God has to save spirit, soul, and the flesh of man from sin.

That's done through the resurrection where man dies to sin in the flesh but is remade by the power of God to live in the flesh forever in his new body of flesh free from sin.

Our Lord taught his in the spiritual sense, that is, dying to the flesh in our everyday life in presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God.

Yep...that is why I love to discuss this topic. It drives me back into God's Word to read again of His love for us.

What I mean is we know it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

I view the "once to die" to be physical death which is produced by sin ("sin begats death") and a power of Satan (Christ "destroyed the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil").

I view the "and then the judgment" to be the judgment of God. God made Jesus "alive in the Spirit", judged Him as righteous, gave Him a name above every names.

Jesus died in the flesh (wages of sin, Satan the cause) and was made alive in the Spirit (judgment of God).


I was asking how you separate the two (the "once to die" from the "judgment").

 

[JonC]

For sure we are being conformed in the image of Christ through the progressive sanctification of the Spirit.

For those who will allow it to take place. I speak of degrees, some allowing more correction by the Spirit to be conformed than others.

Why do we need to be conformed into the image of Christ if our sins are pardoned?

 

[Charlie24]

Yep...that is why I love to discuss this topic. It drives me back into God's Word to read again of His love for us.

What I mean is we know it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

I view the "once to die" to be physical death which is produced by sin ("sin begats death") and a power of Satan (Christ "destroyed the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil").

I view the "and then the judgment" to be the judgment of God. God made Jesus "alive in the Spirit", judged Him as righteous, gave Him a name above every names.

Jesus died in the flesh (wages of sin, Satan the cause) and was made alive in the Spirit (judgment of God).


I was asking how you separate the two (the "once to die" from the "judgment").

At some point in the life of man he is sentenced to separation from God for his sin, that is the Law, the Law of Sin and Death.

It's not only as physical death that man will face.

Man's sinful flesh must die to be changed in the future at the resurrection.

I don't see your recognition of the imposing Second Death man is faced with.

 

[JonC]

At some point in the life of man he is sentenced to separation from God for his sin, that is the Law, the Law of Sin and Death.

It's not only as physical death that man will face.

Man's sinful flesh must die to be changed in the future at the resurrection.

I don't see your recognition of the imposing Second Death man is faced with.

I agree that death produced by sin (physical death) is not the only thing men faces.

I am saying Satan is the author of sin and holds the power of physical death produced by sin (this is why Jesus died physically under "the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil".

You are right that this is only addressing physical death produced by sin.

BUT I was also addressing the judgment of God.

"God 's wrath is against the wicked" who "store up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath".

The cross also addresses this. Jesus was put to death in the flesh (the death sin produces) and made alive in the Spirit (God's judgment).

We are "made alive in Christ", the "old self" dies (slowly) the "new self" lives. We are, in this life, being "conformed to the image of Christ", "dying to sin", "putting to death sin", "being fitted for the kingdom", being "made a new creation in Christ".

At Judgment we will have been "refined", "purified", "righteous", for "Christ's blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness".

God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ, to be righteous, to be glorified".

Christ Himself is this Life.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree that death produced by sin (physical death) is not the only thing men faces.

I am saying Satan is the author of sin and holds the power of physical death produced by sin (this is why Jesus died physically under "the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil".

You are right that this is only addressing physical death produced by sin.

BUT I was also addressing the judgment of God.

"God 's wrath is against the wicked" who "store up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath".

The cross also addresses this. Jesus was put to death in the flesh (the death sin produces) and made alive in the Spirit (God's judgment).

We are "made alive in Christ", the "old self" dies (slowly) the "new self" lives. We are, in this life, being "conformed to the image of Christ", "dying to sin", "putting to death sin", "being fitted for the kingdom", being "made a new creation in Christ".

At Judgment we will have been "refined", "purified", "righteous", for "Christ's blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness".

God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ, to be righteous, to be glorified".

Christ Himself is this Life.

Ok, Paul said that Christ became a curse for sin. He did this on the Cross by taking the curse of the Law which meant death. He did this taking our place. The judgment we deserved was placed on Him.

The Judgment of God was satisfied in Him being the perfect sacrifice for our sins and in our place. I think this is simple, easy to understand.

 

[JonC]

Ok, Paul said that Christ became a curse for sin. He did this on the Cross by taking the curse of the Law which meant death. He did this taking our place. The judgment we deserved was placed on Him.

The Judgment of God was satisfied in Him being the perfect sacrifice for our sins and in our place. I think this is simple, easy to understand.

It is easy to understand, but it combines two distinct things Scripture separates.

We agree that when God judges us we are righteous, conformed into the image of Christ. That is good.

It is the first death (the physical death that once condemned us as belonging to Satan) where we disagree.

I view physical death as a product of sin (James 1:15), Satan as the author of sin (1Jn 3:8), Satan as the one who holds the power of death (Heb 2:14-16). So it is plain to me that Jesus bearing our sins would have to suffer this death that is a power held by Satan in order to reconcile man to God.

You view physical death as God's judgment against sin. But I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.


So we agree on God's judgment insofar as the biblical text (when God judges the world, Judgment Day, the day of wrath, "that Day").

We disagree on what your understanding that you said earlier is not actually in the Bible itself. I believe Christ suffering death which is the power of the devil is in the biblical text, just not what you think it is.

 

[Charlie24]

It is easy to understand, but it combines two distinct things Scripture separates.

We agree that when God judges us we are righteous, conformed into the image of Christ. That is good.

It is the first death (the physical death that once condemned us as belonging to Satan) where we disagree.

I view physical death as a product of sin (James 1:15), Satan as the author of sin (1Jn 3:8), Satan as the one who holds the power of death (Heb 2:14-16). So it is plain to me that Jesus bearing our sins would have to suffer this death that is a power held by Satan in order to reconcile man to God.

You view physical death as God's judgment against sin. But I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.


So we agree on God's judgment insofar as the biblical text (when God judges the world, Judgment Day, the day of wrath, "that Day").

We disagree on what your understanding that you said earlier is not actually in the Bible itself. I believe Christ suffering death which is the power of the devil is in the biblical text, just not what you think it is.

There is no judgment for sin on man declared righteous by God. The judgment for the righteous will be held at the Judgment seat of Christ, not for sin, we have none in the sight of God being in Christ by grace through faith.

We will be judged on faithfulness in our service to Christ, we will receive rewards if our service was for the right reasons and pass the test of God's fire in burning away the hay and stubble.

We believed the Gospel presented to us and the wrath of our sin was placed on Christ, But Woe unto the unbelieving the wrath of God is sure to overcome them in the end, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth to the point for some who will wish they had never been born.

No matter how you place it, Christ took our place on the Cross and took the punishment we deserved, and it was done just to make a reconciliation for our broken relationship with God to give us the opportunity to be redeemed, for who, "whosoever will."

No man who has ever lived will have an excuse for being in Hell, he sent himself there by rejecting Christ in form or another.

Satan has the power of death by the consent of man to continue in it, Christ broke the power of Satan to hold man captive in his sin.

There is no debt owed to Satan, if one thinks there is they are very much confused. Satan is powerless to hold man, he was defeated by Christ on the Cross and His resurrection. Satan is doomed and he knows it, and just before he faces the end he will go on a rampage for one last shot at conquering the world with his "man of sin" the anti-Christ.

He will not know it but has already been defeated himself by the words of the Almighty God.

 

[JonC]

There is no judgment for sin on man declared righteous by God. The judgment for the righteous will be held at the Judgment seat of Christ, not for sin, we have none in the sight of God being in Christ by grace through faith.

We will be judged on faithfulness in our service to Christ, we will receive rewards if our service was for the right reasons and pass the test of God's fire in burning away the hay and stubble.

We believed the Gospel presented to us and the wrath of our sin was placed on Christ, But Woe unto the unbelieving the wrath of God is sure to overcome them in the end, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth to the point for some who will wish they had never been born.

No matter how you place it, Christ took our place on the Cross and took the punishment we deserved, and it was done just to make a reconciliation for our broken relationship with God to give us the opportunity to be redeemed, for who, "whosoever will."

No man who has ever lived will have an excuse for being in Hell, he sent himself there by rejecting Christ in form or another.

Satan has the power of death by the consent of man to continue in it, Christ broke the power of Satan to hold man captive in his sin.

There is no debt owed to Satan, if one thinks there is they are very much confused. Satan is powerless to hold man, he was defeated by Christ on the Cross and His resurrection. Satan is doomed and he knows it, and just before he faces the end he will go on a rampage for one last shot at conquering the world with his "man of sin" the anti-Christ.

He will not know it but has already been defeated himself by the words of the Almighty God.

There is no debt owed to anybody (the debt came in with Jesus canceling the certificate of debt against us, the Mosaic Law).

With Satan the point is that the "sons of Adam" are mastered by Satan because of sin. They are in bondage to sin and death. Death is the power of Satan because he is the author of sin.

If Jesus did not suffer the wrath of the one who held us in bondage then He did not fulfill His purpose in reconciling man to God.

But yes, we no longer are under the bondage of Satan, of the sin he authored or the piwer of death he held. Christ died in the flesh and was made alive in the Spirit. Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.

 

[Charlie24]

There is no debt owed to anybody (the debt came in with Jesus canceling the certificate of debt against us, the Mosaic Law).

With Satan the point is that the "sons of Adam" are mastered by Satan because of sin. They are in bondage to sin and death. Death is the power of Satan because he is the author of sin.

If Jesus did not suffer the wrath of the one who held us in bondage then He did not fulfill His purpose in reconciling man to God.

But yes, we no longer are under the bondage of Satan, of the sin he authored or the piwer of death he held. Christ died in the flesh and was made alive in the Spirit. Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.

So you believe Christ suffered the wrath of Satan in order to make a reconciliation between God and man.

I'm flabbergasted, I don't know what to say!

It was God that was dishonored and insulted by man's sin, not Satan.

But if this is what you believe there's nothing I can do but pray for you, Brother.

 

[JonC]

So you believe Christ suffered the wrath of Satan in order to make a reconciliation between God and man.

I'm flabbergasted, I don't know what to say!

It was God that was dishonored and insulted by man's sin, not Satan.

But if this is what you believe there's nothing I can do but pray for you, Brother.

Yes. I believe that Christ had to be both man and God. If Christ did not suffer the death sin produces, the death that is the power of the author of sin, did not suffer what we suffer, then He could not reconcile man (mankind) to God.

If He was unwilling to be the "Son of Man", as you seem to suggest, then how could He become the Second Adam? How could He be the reconciliation of man and God if He refused to be man???

This has nothing to do with God's judgment against sin. This is about the first death (the one before the second one, which is a result of God's judgment).

The strange thing is I have provided several verses stating that what Jesus suffered was the result of our sin, the power of Satan. You have confessed that your belief on this topic is not actually in the Bible.

Like Peter we can cry "May it never be!". But God merely rebuks that cry and replies "It is". We take it or leave it.


Christ had to suffer under our curse. He had to suffer under our bondage. He had to suffer the death our sins produce. I am saying He did.

Jesus is the Son of God. But Jesus is also rhe Son of Man. Without both there is no reconciliation.

That you cannot at least understand this is bewildering. But that's ok. I get bewildered every now and then.



And thank you. I will pray for you as well (we need to pray for one another). If you have anything specific pm me. I'm good but always welcome prayers (I do have a cold).

 

[Charlie24]

Yes. I believe that Christ had to be both man and God. If Christ did not suffer the death sin produces, the death that is the power of the author of sin, did not suffer what we suffer, then He could not reconcile man (mankind) to God.

If He was unwilling to be the "Son of Man", as you seem to suggest, then how could He become the Second Adam? How could He be the reconciliation of man and God if He refused to be man???

This has nothing to do with God's judgment against sin. This is about the first death (the one before the second one, which is a result of God's judgment).

The strange thing is I have provided several verses stating that what Jesus suffered was the result of our sin, the power of Satan. You have confessed that your belief on this topic is not actually in the Bible.

Like Peter we can cry "May it never be!". But God merely rebuks that cry and replies "It is". We take it or leave it.


Christ had to suffer under our curse. He had to suffer under our bondage. He had to suffer the death our sins produce. I am saying He did.

Jesus is the Son of God. But Jesus is also rhe Son of Man. Without both there is no reconciliation.

That you cannot at least understand this is bewildering. But that's ok. I get bewildered every now and then.



And thank you. I will pray for you as well (we need to pray for one another). If you have anything specific pm me. I'm good but always welcome prayers (I do have a cold).

Well, we disagree Jon. But let's not let this interfere with what we do have in common as Brothers in Christ.

I think you know I meant no disrespect toward you as I know there is none taken on my part.

We are just expressing what we believe. And I love you Brother in the Lord.

 

[JonC]

Well, we disagree Jon. But let's not let this interfere with what we do have in common as Brothers in Christ.

I think you know I meant no disrespect toward you as I know there is none taken on my part.

We are just expressing what we believe. And I love you Brother in the Lord.

I as well. We all have to understand things as we understand things (how's that for being astute?).

I love discussing this topic because it constantly drives me to Scripture. I had not made some associations (and may not have) without this board.

Iron sharpening iron does not always, perhaps rarely, result in agreement.

 

[Charlie24]

I as well. We all have to understand things as we understand things (how's that for being astute?).

I love discussing this topic because it constantly drives me to Scripture. I had not made some associations (and may not have) without this board.

Iron sharpening iron does not always, perhaps rarely, result in agreement.

As I have said many times in the past, and from first hand experience, I never rule out the possibility of my being wrong.

You have been correct from the very beginning that PSA is not clearly written in Scripture beyond any doubt.

We're just reading through different lenses between the lines, the way I see it.

He will clear it all up for us, Jon. LOL, you can apologize then, my friend. (just kidding Brother that may be me doing the apologies).

 

[JonC]

As I have said many times in the past, and from first hand experience, I never rule out the possibility of my being wrong.

You have been correct from the very beginning that PSA is not clearly written in Scripture beyond any doubt.

We're just reading through different lenses between the lines, the way I see it.

He will clear it all up for us, Jon. LOL, you can apologize then, my friend. (just kidding Brother that may be me doing the apologies).

I certainly do not predicate my being with you there with "only if I'm right"

I am sure that I am wrong about a lot of things. Just not this.

How we understand this depends a lot on how we understand the OT, their worldview, justice, etc.

That is a lot of room for mistakes.

 

[Charlie24]

I certainly do not predicate my being with you there with "only if I'm right"

I am sure that I am wrong about a lot of things. Just not this.

How we understand this depends a lot on how we understand the OT, their worldview, justice, etc.

That is a lot of room for mistakes.

Well, we're human always having to speculate. I find myself doing a lot of that.

 

[JonC]

always having to speculate.

Yea...I wear spectacles too. Just can't read without them.